Part 1 From Charisma to Chaos: Inside the Mind of Ted Bundy

Why does the name Ted Bundy continue to send shivers down our spines, decades after his death? How did a man, outwardly charismatic and intelligent, mask a chilling darkness within, executing at least 30 murders and leaving a brutal legacy that haunts the annals of crime history? Brace yourself to step into the dark labyrinth of one of America's most infamous killers.

In this chilling episode, we dissect the life of Ted Bundy, from his puzzling childhood, filled with allegations of disturbing family incidents, to his unsettling relationships. We scrutinize his academic decline, the veneer of normalcy that he projected in his professional life, and his eerie transformation into a psychopath. Delve into the psyche of Bundy, as we lay bare the gruesome details of his heinous murders, including the tragic tale of his fifth victim, Brenda Ball, and the infamous abductions of Janice Ott and Denise Naslund.

Lastly, we grapple with the lasting impact of Bundy's reign of terror, spotlighting the enduring mystery surrounding Georgeann Hawkins' disappearance and the rippling effects on his victims' families. Our journey into the macabre world of Ted Bundy serves as a haunting reminder of the monsters that can lurk within the most ordinary of facades. Tune in next week as we continue our exploration of this unsettling chapter of true crime, diving deeper into the abyss of Bundy's sinister life.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Thanks for tuning in to the Old Dirty Basement. On today's episode we're covering part one of Ted Bundy.

Speaker 2: 0:06

Ted Bundy a handsome man, a charismatic man, a ladies man.

Speaker 3: 0:11

Yeah, that's a smart man, a conniving man, a gentle man.

Speaker 1: 0:16

Oh, maybe we'll find out, thought, this one turned out pretty good. I hope you enjoyed. Speaking of which, if you're enjoying the podcast, leave that five star rating on Spotify, apple. On Apple, you can leave a written review. Sit back and relax and enjoy part one of Ted Bundy.

Speaker 4: 0:37

This is the Old, dirty Basement Home to debauchery, madness, murder and mayhem. A tear-filled train ride deep into the depths of the devil's den.

Speaker 1: 0:52

With a little bit of humor history and copious consciousness.

Speaker 2: 0:57

I'm your announcer shallow throat.

Speaker 4: 1:00

Your hosts are Dave, Matt and Zap. I love you, Matthew McGoney All right, all right, all right.

Speaker 3: 1:11

Hey, this is Dave, Matt and Zap, and welcome to the Old Dirty Basement.

Speaker 1: 1:17

Where every week we cover a true crime, murder or compelling story.

Speaker 3: 1:21

So sit back, relax and comprehend. Hello, hello, hello. Everybody out there in radio land or pod land or Disneyland whatever land you're at. We are here at the Old Dirty Basement again with a tear-filled train ride for you guys tonight, deep into the devil's den.

Speaker 2: 1:42

Yes, yes, somewhere around there.

Speaker 3: 1:44

Yeah, we got a guy we're talking about today. Oh, how's it going, Dave?

Speaker 1: 1:47

Oh, not bad. Not bad, yeah, I was waiting for the intro. How are you doing? I'm great man, Thanks for asking.

Speaker 3: 1:51

I was so excited about this one I couldn't. I just had to keep going there.

Speaker 1: 1:55

Yeah, this one's a long time coming. I think we talked about this one early on and we figured we'd save it.

Speaker 2: 2:01

But I think now's the time. He's a heavy hitter, big time. He is hell. We've been talking about this guy since we did Dahmer.

Speaker 4: 2:09

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:09

He's up there with that. Yeah, and he's in that group.

Speaker 1: 2:12

Yeah, because Zapp sent over. Zapp does the research and stuff and writes up the script and basically all the fun facts.

Speaker 3: 2:19

The Zapp Lab.

Speaker 1: 2:19

The Zapp, yeah, the Zapp.

Speaker 4: 2:21

What'd you say, the Zapp?

Speaker 1: 2:21

Lab.

Speaker 3: 2:22

The Zapp Lab yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:24

So he emails everything over and I'm like, holy shit, dude, this is like Dahmer level, yeah for sure. As far as the facts on this it's crazy.

Speaker 3: 2:33

I had to go to the library like research, I know.

Speaker 2: 2:36

Research, the research. There's so much info on this guy. Oh, and this guy, by the way, the notorious Ted Bundy.

Speaker 1: 2:46

Yeah, and I just thought this guy scored four touchdowns in high school. Yeah, and sold shoes. And sold shoes yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:51

Oh, I thought he was a wrestler. He used to wear a black singlet.

Speaker 1: 2:53

Yeah, he was kind of chubby, yeah, oh well done.

Speaker 2: 2:57

That was the old King Kong Bundy. King Kong Bundy, oh yeah, who is dead?

Speaker 3: 3:01

Yeah, he's dead, I think they're all dead.

Speaker 2: 3:02

Yeah, they're all dead. Oh wait, so that's right. So is this guy. Yeah, they're all dead.

Speaker 1: 3:06

Yeah, what was that term for a bad guy wrestler?

Speaker 2: 3:10

The heel the heel, that's right.

Speaker 1: 3:11

The heel King Kong Bundy was a heel.

Speaker 2: 3:13

Yeah, he was never, ever a good guy.

Speaker 1: 3:15

Okay, nope, yeah, I remember him.

Speaker 3: 3:17

Much like the guy we're talking about. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:19

Yeah, he was a heel.

Speaker 2: 3:20

This guy was a heel basically forever. So Ted Bundy, a charming, charismatic and educated gentleman, this debonair darling turned malicious manipulator, was responsible for at least 30 murders, including 12 decapitations, solely of young women and girls. Media sensation, homicidal maniac, psychopath, sadist, rapist and necrophiliac, ted Bundy became both a household name and a nomenclature for nightmares. That's scary Dude. So it's interesting about this guy. So his whole thing went down when we were kids. I'm saying he went down when we were very little, little, little kids.

Speaker 3: 4:04

Yeah, Like three, 76, I think what 73, 74, 75.

Speaker 2: 4:08

Well, I mean his final days were far later than that, like a decade or so, but I mean. So this guy was dead and gone by the time we were, let's say, teenagers, right?

Speaker 1: 4:19

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:20

But yet it's a name we know Now. So we were just talking when we did Jack the Ripper. So Jack the Ripper that's survived 130, some years. That story Dahmer will go down in history and all that good stuff. But why did we know? Why would we know at all about Ted Bundy? I think it was a media.

Speaker 1: 4:39

Well, that was 80, 89.

Speaker 4: 4:41

I think when the you know I don't want to jump to 80, when everything went down that would have been that we would have probably saw by then.

Speaker 1: 4:50

And I mean 14, what 13, 14?

Speaker 2: 4:52

That makes sense.

Speaker 1: 4:54

I remember it being on the news.

Speaker 3: 4:56

I kind of remember it back then Brian Gumbel, I think, did a thing on it. He's like today and I remember early in the morning or something like when he was, yep, sleepy time.

Speaker 1: 5:06

But outside of that, I think it was more on my radar in high school and later on when I got more interested in true crime and all that. You know, when you start like looking into, like, oh, what other serial killers were there, I mean this guy's up at the top, so I think it's just one of those names, that's just. You don't remember, probably when you first heard it. You just know you feel like you've known it forever, right.

Speaker 2: 5:28

It's like the I don't know, like the Challenger accident, right.

Speaker 1: 5:30

Right.

Speaker 3: 5:31

So I mean that was certainly in our formative years. What you were saying, too, is that where you have like the psychopath, sadist, rapist and necrophiliac, there's also claims with this dude, with some cannibalism and other things like that.

Speaker 2: 5:44

Oh, really I didn't. Yeah, that's news to me.

Speaker 3: 5:47

Yeah, I mean we'll talk about it as we go on this guy, there's a lot of things that I don't know. Towards the end he was saying a lot of things, but and there's also a lot of things that were given to him maybe, but were they looking for somebody? Were they looking for?

Speaker 2: 6:03

It's fair and you bring up and that's a great foreshadow, because by the time we get to the end of this hell even the end is going to take a long time to get- through, to get through, yeah. You're, matt, you're absolutely right, and it's a real interesting twist that he put on this himself. All right. So, yeah, all right, we'll fuck it. Let's, you know, let's get into this, huh.

Speaker 2: 6:23

Yeah let's do it. We got a lot of ground to cover, so let's get going before somebody's wife who shall remain nameless comes down telling us to button it up, to button it up, yeah Right.

Speaker 2: 6:33

All right. So this cat, ted Bundy, was born on November 24th 1946. His actual handle when he was born it was Ted Cowell. He didn't become Ted Bundy until after he was legally adopted, when he was five. His mom ended up getting married, or remarried, or whatever it is, when he was five. This cat never knew his father. His biological didn't bother. That's a shame. In fact he was initially raised by his grandparents in. Here we are Pennsylvania, roxborough, pennsylvania.

Speaker 1: 7:05

Yeah, I looked that up. It's like Northwest Philly, yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:08

Right outside of Philly. Who just lost the damn?

Speaker 1: 7:10

world's early.

Speaker 3: 7:11

Not the West.

Speaker 1: 7:13

Yeah, I was looking on the map and it kind of seems like it might be right. When you get off the turnpike and you're heading down the school kill and you look off to the left and kind of see those neighborhoods.

Speaker 2: 7:22

Yep, you'll see Roxborough, you'll see Manny Unk.

Speaker 3: 7:25

But that really wasn't influential in his life.

Speaker 1: 7:26

No no, he got out of dodge.

Speaker 3: 7:29

He wasn't a Philly kid.

Speaker 1: 7:30

It wasn't eating tomato pie.

Speaker 3: 7:32

Yeah, he's walking around with like a Philly's cap or he's like you're fucking Eagles man.

Speaker 1: 7:38

He might have been at the stadium, yeah who knows, who knows?

Speaker 2: 7:41

I think it no.

Speaker 1: 7:42

Not at that age.

Speaker 2: 7:43

Not at that age, no, so yeah, he was raised by his grandparents. It's interesting, you know, when you look back on this guy. So he was born at this place. It was like the Whomever's name house for unwet mother or some such shit like it's. So it was just so Blatantly. You know if you're going into this place, it was basically like walking into the clinic. It's like a shame.

Speaker 1: 8:06

Yeah correct.

Speaker 2: 8:07

It's shame and, in fact, like there was this stigma, such a stigma back then. And I mean, look, we all know this, even you know us growing up nowadays. Oh, it's cool to be pregnant, right or whatever yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:19

But back then, like if you were an unwet mother, if you got knocked up, like yeah, man, that was shame all day. You're gonna disappear for a little while. And yeah, I mean to the point where his grandparents would keep this cat around and not just keep him around it, obviously, but it was. They would introduce him as their own son.

Speaker 1: 8:36

Yeah, mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 8:38

Like his sister I'm sorry like his mom was his older sister, older sister.

Speaker 1: 8:41

Yeah, they said that the mother went away to have Ted and then the grandfather was, like you know, move back in and basically will be the parents.

Speaker 3: 8:48

Well, they can't, she couldn't take care of them, so that's why yeah, but, like you said, he thought his mom was his sister for the longest time, until he got older. I was like, wait, you're too Okay, I get it.

Speaker 2: 8:57

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 8:58

I get it I get it Well.

Speaker 2: 9:00

I've seen there's more jacked up, but yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3: 9:04

So yeah, at some point, but altogether, like you said it not not, not all that bad.

Speaker 2: 9:08

No no, the worst, yeah, not the worst plenty of kids that came up with single parents plenty.

Speaker 3: 9:15

Yeah, he's not even close to the triad, he's still in like the rectangular.

Speaker 2: 9:19

Oh.

Speaker 3: 9:20

House shape.

Speaker 2: 9:20

Yeah, it's like it's like a 20-sided dice. Mm-hmm, right, yeah. So at some point him and his mom moved out to Tacoma, washington, when he was just four years old.

Speaker 1: 9:31

So, zap, I see here you had, like grandfather, conflicting stories. Don't believe the hype. So what did you mean by that?

Speaker 2: 9:36

So by that I thank you at Christ. I skipped over that note. So there were. You know, when this guy, when this scumbag ends up getting his comeuppance, so many analysts and psychologists and whomever are gonna look back and say, just like Matt had alluded like what, or mention, I should say, what caused this, what, what went wrong in his kids, upringing what, upbringing in his life and shit. And so there were claims that and this actually is from Ted himself at one point, or he would say, oh, my grandfather, you know he beat the shit out of me, or he beat the shit out of my grandmother. Or you know he was just a terrible drunk, or he was just a, an awful, awful dude, whereas, conversely, you know, when you're starting to look into the try to corroborate the story of a fucking maniac, by the way, right, you know, just to see, is this guy telling the truth?

Speaker 3: 10:26

Maybe other people will, as character witnesses will say no man but there was all kinds of like you said, oh man was a nice dude, yeah, there was nothing that I read or that was said, or nothing that he would say to one person how there was nothing that affected his childhood. Growing up he had a pretty normal, decent life and then when he's talking to like somebody down the line, his, his childhood was the most messed up you can imagine yeah, that's what I'm saying with this guy. This guy is night and day. This guy is a true Character of like what he was or what he wanted you to believe that he was. And but, real quick, I do have when you were saying you know this maniac, this crazy person, this person that could commit those things. He says something at the end of his life there where it kind of strikes you as like wow, but we'll get to all that later.

Speaker 1: 11:15

Well, two stories that are Alleged or people allude to maybe being a possibility of something that happened. Well, there's a story with his aunt, who was his sister at that time, that she said that when he was three years old, she was asleep on the bed and he put knives all around her and basically when she woke up and came out of it, he was standing at the edge of the bed like smiling at her Jesus.

Speaker 1: 11:38

This is from his aunt, slash sister story though, three-year-old and I, and then the other one that there was an article on Vanity Fair back in 1989 that they alluded to maybe the possibility that Psychologists and psychiatrists say that maybe there was some incest going on, that the grandfather was actually the father. I thought it's Marilyn Manson, I did.

Speaker 2: 11:57

Yeah, I did see that, I, I did read that. I didn't even bother including it because it's alleged. Yeah, I mean, it's so much of this and I, I see where you're going that I can see the look in your eye. There's so much of this guy's life that there's so much of this guy's life that, as we will later, as Matt mentioned, and we will all mention when we get close to the end, this guy was All over the place, right, just all over the place.

Speaker 1: 12:22

And this is just like, as a story gets bigger and bigger, people come out with stories to add to it, or maybe just to get notoriety, like you know. So you never know what's true, what's not and what you know. Obviously there's a lot out there on this guy. I just thought that was interesting, you know.

Speaker 3: 12:36

But he's too interesting things. He's well educated, which we'll talk about in a psychology major and we'll get into other things that he's how to play the game he's no dummy.

Speaker 1: 12:45

The guy's not a dummy. Yeah well, I don't know that. He put those out there. This came from others. Those stories, stories, yeah, yeah, that's what I mean still, it's like we're.

Speaker 3: 12:55

We're the stories. Anybody has a story. No I agree, yeah, I agree and everybody's story is important.

Speaker 2: 13:01

Everybody's life is a story well as ted grows and as ted grows up, I mean, here we go, there's what. What went wrong? What could have caused anything? So from one side you will hear From varying people who may have known him Well there were allegations of animal cruelty and bullying, like as a. For example, there were stories that he would take neighborhood kids into the woods, beat the shit out of them or make them strip or just embarrass them or just demean them or do whatever he possibly could Just this awful, terrible bully. And there was a single story of some cat he had hung on a clothesline by its tail and he lit it on fire.

Speaker 3: 13:42

So wasn't that? That was like a, a Dahmer thing, though, but I think they seem Dahmer do it. These are just things that, oh, I think I remember one time or right, yeah, that that bunny dude was crazy, I remember, and it wasn't even like Ted bunny, it could have been like joe smith, right as, but and then Conversely, though, as time went on, or maybe even at the same time, he was actually a relatively social and likable and approachable and fun loving guy, according to other classmates.

Speaker 2: 14:09

So these again, you're going to hear some stories from one people like, yeah, that guy's an asshole and he's burning cats, and you know other people say, dude, that that guy's awesome, and you know we go to the burger, to king and hang out and do whatever.

Speaker 3: 14:19

I think you kind of shy, regular type kid just growing up, you know, just doing this thing.

Speaker 1: 14:23

There's a documentary on netflix, the ted bundy tapes when they're talking about his early life. There's a girl on there that was a childhood friend of his and I tell us a story about he was in Boy Scouts and stuff and I don't know if it was at a Boy Scout camp or a summer camp or what was going on, but she told a story of he was setting these tiger traps up for kids to fall into and uh, what's a tiger trap Like?

Speaker 1: 14:44

basically, where you, he put stakes inside the ground and like cover them with leaves, yeah, like hollow out some ground and then put so that when you run over you, fall down.

Speaker 3: 14:51

You never did anything like that as a kid, like in the woods. You didn't make like traps and stuff.

Speaker 1: 14:55

Well, we talked about that on friday. I wasn't really out in the woods.

Speaker 3: 14:57

No, that's right, I forgot.

Speaker 1: 14:59

I'm sorry but um we would cover potholes and people would fall in there.

Speaker 2: 15:03

Cars like cars would fall in day. Was it next friday after 13?

Speaker 1: 15:06

Right, that's right. But she told the story about him doing that and a girl actually falling in there getting all jacked up Her leg got all gouged up. That was on that documentary that I watched, which was real interesting.

Speaker 3: 15:17

But then I wouldn't like a counselor or something. Be like yeah, I was a witness to that.

Speaker 1: 15:21

Well she was. I mean, I don't know if that that counselor might not be around anymore.

Speaker 4: 15:25

It's true, there's so many years ago.

Speaker 1: 15:26

She's just she's in her 60s or 70s now recounting this story, um, but so there, there was just one story that he talked about.

Speaker 3: 15:33

That's kind of fucked up for a kid to do that, sure, because you know somebody's gonna get hurt but you did that stuff in Boy Scout camp I remember doing like making, trying to make stuff to like catch bunny rabbits. You're that. Look, you put the, the one big log or like a Big stone up on like a stick and you go and you pull the stick kind of squash things, yeah, but to catch humans and stuff, but I don't think it was to catch humans.

Speaker 2: 15:54

I don't know. That is a whole different story.

Speaker 3: 15:56

Yeah, or maybe I don't know. When you're a kid you do dumb stuff, true. But um, back to when zap was saying I like just a point that I want to make early in the story, like why does something have to be something to cause Something? Like, why does, why does there have to be an event in your Like what if the guy just was? Fucked up not even that. Like what if he was just Into what he thought was cool?

Speaker 2: 16:20

I don't know, I'm not gonna. I'll take the. I I'm pretty sure I understand where Matt's going with this. In fact, I know where Matt's going with this. It's like look later yeah we all did fucked up shit when we were kids. There's you, dude.

Speaker 3: 16:31

I am definitely not gonna deny that, like I liked playing with matches, or I did this, that or the other way to go down to where you were at those those big long pipes and stuff, we would find firecrackers and sure, one person being the other end crawling in, you sit there and throw firecracks and you don't think anything bad is going to happen, right? But then some kids come back like they got to go to the hospital because you blew their arm up.

Speaker 2: 16:49

But you're like ah, I didn't mean to do that right and that that doesn't later on mean that I'm going to be a serial killer. No, I agree.

Speaker 1: 16:55

I agree, but these are just stories that obviously they're trying to tie something. When somebody grows up to be like this, they're just looking for anything, anything we can tie to him being, you know, screwed up. And you could look at me and say, oh, he watched all them horror movies when he was a kid. You know that, that curry, you know.

Speaker 3: 17:10

Like, yeah, dave was in the city and listen to rap music. Now he wants to be gangsta. Now he's gonna be a gangsta.

Speaker 2: 17:15

Yeah, these kids and their raps.

Speaker 1: 17:16

No, but you can tie that to anything.

Speaker 2: 17:19

Well, he wasn't exactly Crispin clean with no caffeine. He was, in fact arrested twice in high school, once on, and to be very clear, suspicion of burglary and then again suspicion Of theft of a motor vehicle I did read about that what you're just saying, and I think there was.

Speaker 3: 17:39

He did like to go to like convenience stores and steal stuff, just for like the Thrill of it. They said like your friends like said you know, I and and that's something that I think is completely normal, oh, my god, yeah, hell, yeah, like if one of them like there's stuff that we look at. I mean, we knew friends of ours when we went and we would go to the malls.

Speaker 3: 17:55

I can't speak for all of you, but sometimes during the holiday season I didn't have much money. But you would try to like maybe get a dvd or a cd or sure, or a video cassette tape or something, and that was cool. But but that doesn't make you a murder.

Speaker 1: 18:07

So you're the reason the malls are closing. Thank you, yeah.

Speaker 3: 18:11

That's the reason that the prices of goods and services are so high, I know that's why gallant milk is 14 99. It's not joe biden, it's matt.

Speaker 4: 18:19

That's right.

Speaker 2: 18:21

Well, nonetheless, despite the suspicions of burglary and theft of motor vehicle, he did in fact successfully graduate high school in 1965. So he made it.

Speaker 1: 18:30

One other thing too, that I read that he had a speech impediment. Yes, and he got picked on for that really and that's, uh, that's a theme that I actually when, when zap and I did the pig farmer, that's something he had, and I think there was an at least one or two other ones where they had that speech impediment as a as a kid and then got picked on yeah, real quick fun fact into that.

Speaker 3: 18:49

It was later on, when he was in trouble, um, he was interviewed by a group of one Of certain people that he was completely normal and then when he would be on television for something he would kind of get shy and go to like his stutter type. Like an norton from yes, like, yes, there you go, exactly that.

Speaker 2: 19:11

I wonder if it was anything the stuttering thing, if it was like that one guy from superstar. Superstar, superstar, superstar, correct.

Speaker 1: 19:22

Oh, you talking about mary caligar, mary kathryn gallagher?

Speaker 2: 19:24

Yeah, so she gets. There's this new, this new kid that comes to class. He doesn't speak, he doesn't speak at all, but he rides a motorcycle. He's all badass and mysterious and whatever right. It ends up being the guy that had when they were kids. He saved her from drowning in a pool or, I'm sorry, she saved him from drowning in a pool and he ended up being her Later, her love interest. Oh shit, no.

Speaker 1: 19:46

I remember that skit.

Speaker 3: 19:48

Sometimes, when I get nervous, I put my hand on my armpit and I slowly Like that's never.

Speaker 2: 19:52

You need to know that I love that movie. Do so much.

Speaker 3: 19:56

It's just it's that catholic school vibe.

Speaker 2: 19:59

It's, it's nailed, absolutely nailed it. All right. So this guy growing up good job, you made it. He went on to attend the University of Washington and majored in of all things, chinese, of all things.

Speaker 1: 20:13

I'm just saying I would like just the language speaking Japanese.

Speaker 2: 20:17

No, maybe you wanted to go.

Speaker 3: 20:18

Yeah, maybe you wanted to go overseas or something or get a job Somewhere else, or you know what I mean, in China perhaps possible.

Speaker 2: 20:24

I guess I look at it and I just think of majoring in a language. That's just that. I'm sure it is the thing. I know it is a thing, it's just something that escapes my Desire for a career path.

Speaker 1: 20:34

Yeah, cuz like, what would you do with that? I guess maybe like we, like we know somebody right that does that in the military.

Speaker 2: 20:40

Speaks Chinese.

Speaker 1: 20:41

No, but then. Then the colonels brother, and then what he does like with language 90 more than the military.

Speaker 3: 20:48

Okay, he just lives in.

Speaker 2: 20:49

Yeah, he just had real and he just happens to live in the Orient and in north.

Speaker 1: 20:53

I thought his thing was it. You know the good side, he was only good side. I thought his thing was like he would intercept messages and he might have way back when.

Speaker 3: 21:05

Yeah, I don't know about that.

Speaker 1: 21:06

We got we got talk. We can't talk about that. I see your friends.

Speaker 2: 21:09

Crazy talk. Gonna be SWAT team coming in through.

Speaker 3: 21:11

You're gonna see.

Speaker 2: 21:14

Busting through the ceiling.

Speaker 1: 21:15

Yeah, better keep it on the low.

Speaker 2: 21:17

Well, not surprisingly, with a major in Chinese, he dropped out in 1968 dummy. So this dude, I will tell you big dummy, big dummy. This guy now is just a beatnik, right? He's 22 years old, he's got no career, he's got no ambition. And he was because of no career and no ambition he got dumped by his longtime girlfriend, diane Edwards. That's a name I want you to remember Diane Edwards, yeah she was.

Speaker 3: 21:44

They were saying that was a big part. I don't know if we're talking about that later. I mean she was a big part, but they said that could have been the one that he got a little cuckoo over, could one of them? I thought she? He might have thought that was the one Mm-hmm, and she was like I got no time for you big.

Speaker 2: 21:57

That's, I'm gonna hitch my wagon to that theory. But that theory will unfold as we get there. In the meantime, working odd jobs, doing whatever, he met a single mother, elizabeth Cloepfer in 1969 and dated this broad for close to a decade.

Speaker 3: 22:16

Yeah, it was weird with her. Also, there was that whole story with a Zac Efron it was one of the Bundy movies, mm-hmm. But it was all about her life and and like when she found him, you know and and took him in and it was weird because he, he was like he really dug her, but she had a young daughter at the time.

Speaker 3: 22:34

Yeah sure did. Yeah, so it was. Um, you know, people think of this guy again later on in the story. You know, how can somebody be one way and Completely be another way?

Speaker 2: 22:46

and a many faces dude, it's Look between between Diane Edwards and Elizabeth Cloepfer. This guy, I tell you these broads, fuck this guy up.

Speaker 1: 22:57

Oh, big time, I'm telling you man.

Speaker 3: 22:58

Well, liz too Like yeah, we'll find out. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:03

Morse code Send-a-nose smoke signals. All right. So I guess with the inspiration of now Dayton is broad and helping her to raise her young daughter, he did end up resuming college in 1970. He changed his major, this time to psychology, except for get Chinese, and ultimately graduated in 1972. Congratulations.

Speaker 1: 23:28

So I got two things that happened during that time. I thought we're pretty interesting. Now this is according to Bundy's testimony. He said his first attempted kidnapping was in Ocean City, new Jersey, in 1969, so that would have been during the time or around the time that he was involved with us, elizabeth.

Speaker 2: 23:43

How do we does? Is this something he claimed?

Speaker 1: 23:45

he claimed oh yeah, this is him, like we said, sure, he says a lot he says a lot.

Speaker 2: 23:51

He does, but you know, so he says he tried to kidnap somebody in 1969, his first attempt in Ocean City, new Jersey. Ocean City, new Jersey.

Speaker 1: 23:59

So just the thing that he was nearby here is pretty scary.

Speaker 2: 24:02

You know what they say kiss her where it smells, take her to New Jersey. To New Jersey, it's gonna stand over.

Speaker 1: 24:08

Like what Also around this time fun fact is it fun or not it?

Speaker 2: 24:14

is it?

Speaker 1: 24:14

is okay, they're all fun. Oh, he worked for at a suicide hotline during this time, 1971, so that would have been around the time that he was majoring in psychology. He worked at a suicide hotline, took phone calls and stuff like that makes sense, you know, probably to hone those skills of dealing with people and you know people that are on, you know have issues and unstable or whatever.

Speaker 3: 24:33

So yeah, I, um, I read about that what you were just saying, and there was, uh, in one of the movies about him they were showing that he would use that To get to know people around the area. So he would say, you know, hey, you have anything else they would call. You know, we'd make it kind of vanilla and then he'd start getting to know these people and he'd be like, oh, what was that in the background, like you'd hear a dog barking or you know where do you go to school, and like these girls would be like you know, I go to, you know this place, or I'm still in high school and you know, hey, well, where, where you live, about it, you know what's your favorite spot to go eat, and he finds all these things out and he's very methodical about About doing these and these could be things that he could use in his favor. If you would ever run into these girls and he would, he would kind of like Get to know them through these hotlines and stuff like that almost like a chat room.

Speaker 2: 25:17

Now that is that is interesting. It's I'll, I'll. Yeah, it's certainly interesting. However, there's a part of his mo so kind of conflicts with where you're going with that. But again, we'll get to the mo when there's actually something to talk about relative to a motive right.

Speaker 2: 25:35

I wonder, matt and dave, if that the chatting with the people on the phone again this is a suicide hotline. But maybe these guys are trained like hey man, keep them talking, like don't let them shut up or don't let them get off the phone and go grab a cold razor in a hot bath, right, yeah, you know, just keep them talking. The ask them about themselves. You know, the more somebody talks like, I'll tell you what I mean. It's a quick conversation opener. Tell me about yourself. Tell me about yourself, what do you do for fun? Not what do you do?

Speaker 3: 26:05

for a fucking living.

Speaker 4: 26:06

What do you do for?

Speaker 2: 26:07

fun, right, people will love to talk about themselves. Yes, this what I would hope, uplift the suicidal person spirits. I'm no scientist, but maybe yeah maybe you're right.

Speaker 1: 26:18

According to like psychiatrists, psychologists and whoever else had studied, this guy said that it might have been too for him A way to play god you know what I mean with people.

Speaker 3: 26:26

I just saved your life tonight, don't you think you get fired, though? If you'd be like, hey, uh, you know, I think you should go out there and, uh, you know, grab that gun.

Speaker 2: 26:37

Dude, you're 40 years old, you work at a gas station. To just end it now, man.

Speaker 1: 26:41

Yeah, come on. Uh, ted, you're going 40. You're going 40. Come on, ted. Come on, dude.

Speaker 3: 26:45

Like everybody has these little like sheets. Yeah, they keep on like X and out of stuff. He's like damn it.

Speaker 2: 26:50

That's another one I just think about. All right, what is it? It's like a safety protocol, like it's been this many days since an exit. So it's been this many days since the suicide.

Speaker 3: 26:58

Ted's bad. Ted's like that's six today. I'm like no Ted, it's the opposite. God damn it.

Speaker 1: 27:03

No, I Actually they were mean in the other way, but I know what you're saying that would. That would be, but no, he was like he basically had their life in his hands, but then, during that time, he was saving them. According to the people that worked with him, he was good at it. They said yeah, yeah which was insane to think.

Speaker 3: 27:18

But Was a smooth talker. Yeah, he could talk, man.

Speaker 2: 27:22

Which I'm guessing he yeah, so he certainly learned how to talk and that that maybe it's that psychology or that psychology degree that that really helped him to come out of that shell and learn how to talk. Because as he entered his uh truly his professional life, he ended up working in a couple of politically appointed positions for a few years. I mean that's just look, I got to meet this guy who introduced me to this guy who I worked on this campaign, or I helped that guy out doing this, and I mean it worked out for him. He had a job waiting for him, just he just asked for it, uh, and then from there he attended law school at the university of Puget sound.

Speaker 1: 27:59

Yeah, he wanted to go to like a better school but they said his L sat to her low. I guess that's like the test you take to get in the law school and he didn't do so hot.

Speaker 1: 28:07

Well, instead of studying, he was out murdering yeah there was a guy on that documentary that was on there being interviewed and he was a guy that he was saying Ted really looked up to him. He, he was a lawyer, I think, and everything that Ted wanted to be. And he's the one that told him like hey, just go to this Puget sound, get your degree, you know what I mean, like you don't have to go like to the biggest, best schools and you know. But, um, yeah, so he was uh, I don't want to say felt defeated by that, but he was kind of bummed that he was going to that smaller school.

Speaker 3: 28:37

Yeah, get over it. Yeah, yeah, maybe I still got a degree relaxed dude.

Speaker 2: 28:41

That's true, and look, not for nothing, anybody from the central Pennsylvania area. There is Penn State at Harrisburg. They have a campus. When you graduate from Penn State Harrisburg, your degree reads Penn State.

Speaker 1: 28:54

Yeah, we're going through that with my son. It is not at all yeah suffixed with Harrisburg.

Speaker 2: 28:59

Your degree reads Penn State. On your resume, you're going to indicate I graduated from Penn State, because that is true and that's the other 20, some Satellite campuses Penn State has throughout the state of Pennsylvania.

Speaker 3: 29:11

All of them, thank you, that's absolutely true, and you will save yourself about a hundred, a shit ton, that's thousand saved it.

Speaker 2: 29:20

I didn't mean dollars. Yeah well, I don't know, a few years from now, who knows what we'll be spending. We'll be spending our money on the real world, robots, robots, let's see. Oh, okay. So job, job, job. He's moved around traveling with doing political stuff. I know there was some political stuff he was doing in California because In 1973 he ended up reconnecting with that ex-girlfriend of his that, diane Edwards, who now lived in California time.

Speaker 1: 29:50

This is that same Diane that dumped him, ditched him, called him a bum because he dropped out of school, didn't have a job, you know what I mean. So he was always threatened by her.

Speaker 2: 29:57

So I'm sorry he kept up with this. He reconnected with his ex-girlfriend but at the same time he was still living with and dating that that single mother. I don't know if he was living with her, but he was definitely dating and carrying on with that. Elizabeth clover. Yeah, we shall call her Liz, thank you. Thank you, we shall call her.

Speaker 4: 30:15

Liz yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:16

So all right. Not too long after, though, he ended up dumping, so he started redating that Diane Edwards. Oh man, he's successful, right, he's got yourself a psychology degree, and oh man, you're going to law school. He ended up dumping that broad in January of 1974, after they had a five or six month relationship.

Speaker 3: 30:37

That's nothing. You get over that quick.

Speaker 2: 30:38

Well this I firmly believe he did that just to basically say you did this to me, now I'm gonna do it to you.

Speaker 1: 30:46

He wanted to control. Yeah, he's like can't buy me love, you know like that movie. I remember that with Patrick Dempsey.

Speaker 3: 30:53

Yeah, we just met him.

Speaker 1: 30:54

We're like that girl in the beginning. Yeah, we did just meet him, we just met him. Yeah, the miracle event.

Speaker 2: 30:59

Yeah, I did not. I have never seen that movie. Oh, it's a great movie. You gotta see that man.

Speaker 4: 31:03

So basically in the movie Patrick, I might do that on a vintage cinema review.

Speaker 3: 31:07

We should do that one.

Speaker 1: 31:08

Actually I want to do that movie.

Speaker 3: 31:10

Actually, when I was, I wanted to be Patrick Dempsey.

Speaker 1: 31:12

Oh, he was great.

Speaker 3: 31:13

He was awesome.

Speaker 1: 31:15

So he's kind of like nerdy, you know whatever. And then this hot girl who's popular and rich and all that, he's like infatuated with her. He pays her, he saves up money and pays her to be his girlfriend. They impress everybody at school. Then he becomes super popular and then he dumps her.

Speaker 4: 31:30

You know what I mean, once they're together.

Speaker 1: 31:31

And she was like what the I don't want to ruin the ending.

Speaker 3: 31:34

Yeah, yeah, it's great.

Speaker 1: 31:35

It reminded me of this, but minus the love.

Speaker 2: 31:38

Interesting Mind.

Speaker 3: 31:39

Yeah, Can't buy me death.

Speaker 2: 31:40

It's just like this, minus the love. Fun fact, I can't stand Patrick Dempsey, and what turned me off on Patrick Dempsey was his awful and I mean atrocious acting in with honors.

Speaker 3: 31:53

Oh really, we're not counting old Patrick Dempsey. This is like when he was a kid. This is like starting off in Hollywood, Patrick Dempsey.

Speaker 1: 31:59

Oh about, like McDreamy.

Speaker 3: 32:01

Yeah, see F that I never watched it. That's, that's, that's crap.

Speaker 2: 32:04

Is that that?

Speaker 1: 32:06

Grazing out of you.

Speaker 2: 32:06

Thank you Grazing out of me.

Speaker 3: 32:08

No, we're talking like Patrick Dempsey when he's like 20. You can have that.

Speaker 2: 32:13

All right, so all right, let's see. Okay, so he dumped this ex-girlfriend in January of 74. Like, and I mean completely cut off communication, and again I think some of it was from power. But at the same time not but a couple of months, or I should say at that time he started skipping class and then, by April of 74, he had stopped attending classes completely.

Speaker 1: 32:34

Just, dropped out.

Speaker 2: 32:35

Just dropped out done. Now it is interesting we get to his criminal life when we discover his first confirmed criminal history, when it began with assault on January 4th of 1974. Again, he broke up with that Edwards check in January of 74. And January 4th 74, enter Karen Sparks, who was a student at the University of Washington. Old Ted snuck into her apartment, beat her with a metal bar he'd removed for bed framed and then he jammed it up her vagina. Now, this chick survived. However, she was left with permanent brain damage and hearing and vision loss.

Speaker 1: 33:20

That's pretty brutal.

Speaker 3: 33:22

Why wasn't he in jail for that?

Speaker 1: 33:24

Well, they didn't catch him yet.

Speaker 3: 33:25

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:26

Was it him, was it?

Speaker 3: 33:28

I don't know.

Speaker 2: 33:29

I don't know, but I can tell you that that wasn't enough. The assault just wasn't enough. He got a little tased going after these women and then we get to all right, his true career, his true calling in life killing women, Murder.

Speaker 3: 33:46

What was he doing during this time To get you know?

Speaker 2: 33:50

Like for a living. Yeah, I mean he was living with the one chick he was.

Speaker 3: 33:55

But I was like a lot of the stories about him don't say what he was doing.

Speaker 1: 33:58

For a job? Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 34:00

Where was he gainfully employed? Did he just hang out?

Speaker 2: 34:03

I think at this point he was on welfare. I'm pretty sure at this point he was at the Department of Emergency Services for the state of Washington. He left that suicide hotline Again. He started getting very politically connected. And then this Department of Emergency Services. This was just a hey man, look, I need a job. Okay, cool, here you go, here's a job.

Speaker 1: 34:26

One other thing that I know he worked for the Seattle Crime Commission right before the murder started, so he was able to find out how law enforcement works, how they track murderers how they do all that.

Speaker 1: 34:37

He did that. I mean, he was probably had the thought in his head like, oh, let me get in here with these guys and kind of see guys and girls wherever's there, Let me see how they operate, how do they track these people down? So he had an idea of how law enforcement investigates and tracks killers and stuff. Now whether or not he was there while these murders were going on, I'm not sure.

Speaker 3: 34:58

See, that's what I had, nothing really.

Speaker 1: 34:59

He might've been still working there while the murders were going on.

Speaker 3: 35:02

I just found it interesting because, like a lot of the stuff you read about it like we're all trying to piece it together they never really stated what he did for a living.

Speaker 2: 35:09

I'm pretty sure this guy maintained gainful employee like the whole way through, Absolutely the whole way through. It's just they're gonna. I'm guessing that our sources are gonna focus on his murders, not necessarily how well he did on a performance evaluation at work, Maybe what do I know?

Speaker 4: 35:25

I'm not a scientist.

Speaker 2: 35:26

All right. So, with assault now under his belt, he moved on to Linda Healy, who was a student at the University of Washington. On February 4th 1974, this is like a month after the assault he sneaks into this woman's apartment, beats her unconscious, then takes her off campus, rapes her, murders her and then left her body in the woods.

Speaker 1: 35:53

Yeah, this girl here. She was a weather reporter for the Northwest Ski Reports. Oh, so, as a student, as a student, yeah, she'd go in there and do that in the morning and then go off to school.

Speaker 2: 36:02

That's awesome.

Speaker 1: 36:03

But that morning, obviously the morning after, she didn't show up for work and they were like that's odd. One of her roommates heard the alarm clock going off and went up to the room and like, saw that the bed was empty and turned the alarm clock off and thought, well, she left for work. So she didn't think much of it. But then, as hours went by and nobody heard from her, they called investigate, you know, 911 or whatever police. They came out the bed and everything was perfectly made. The room was like nobody was there. So when they peeled back the covers there was blood stains on the mattress and stuff.

Speaker 3: 36:36

Jesus, so he made the bed. I guess that's Michael Jackson.

Speaker 4: 36:39

Blood stains on the carpet Blood stains on the carpet.

Speaker 2: 36:41

But, linda, are you okay?

Speaker 3: 36:43

Yeah, this is where it starts getting very gray for me, like the areas is like, these are all things like later on where he's like yep, that was me, yeah, that was me, uh-huh, yeah, that was me, well, but there's no evidence, well, I mean.

Speaker 1: 37:01

There's no evidence. You'd be a good lawyer. Well, for a defender, but no he was a lawyer.

Speaker 3: 37:07

Actually, he was very close to I mean. He got away with how much stuff really, but did he really have to get away with all that much?

Speaker 1: 37:14

I get what you're saying, but I would think the guy's guilty of some of these.

Speaker 3: 37:20

But was there any DNA? Was there any?

Speaker 1: 37:22

Oh, they didn't have DNA, they didn't like track DNA back then.

Speaker 3: 37:25

But wouldn't they try to like look at the bodies afterwards, that's a whole thing Like they would have had to have done stuff afterwards. They'd be like, ah, that probably wasn't him.

Speaker 1: 37:34

Yeah, I mean into the eight. We'll get into it. Yeah, we'll get into it. I'll see what you're saying.

Speaker 3: 37:37

Yeah For the bodies that they did find. The other ones could be, who knows? Yeah, they could be in Canada.

Speaker 2: 37:42

Yeah, there's some things they found that only he would know. Yeah, and we'll get there. We'll get there. So not but a little bit more than a month after that we find Donna Manson, also a student. This one was at Evergreen State College on March 12th 1974. This poor woman was abducted, raped, murdered and beheaded. Interestingly enough, the skull was never found. Later on, bundy would claim that he cremated it. He basically he threw it into his girlfriend's fireplace and burned it. That's horseshit.

Speaker 1: 38:19

Yeah, cause you can't?

Speaker 2: 38:20

it doesn't get hot enough Hell no, the heat that you need to burn bone, the skull Dude, yeah again. And especially the thickest bone in your body yeah, I cry foul on that.

Speaker 3: 38:32

And this is a lot of stuff that, when I claim it was crunch time for him to be like, to try to stay alive, he was like, yeah, I'll tell you all about this if you give me, you know, 60 days, 180 days.

Speaker 1: 38:44

Well, we talked about that. In each Homes there was a he tried to dispose of like a body, bones and stuff in a fireplace and it just doesn't get hot enough.

Speaker 2: 38:53

It doesn't work. It does not.

Speaker 1: 38:55

So yeah, there's one on Matt. You're bringing me around now.

Speaker 3: 38:58

I get one. So far, I'm taking a score tally for the end of the year.

Speaker 1: 39:02

That bring me back.

Speaker 2: 39:03

No, well, this one, this one, I think we all will concur. There is no way this dude is burning a skull in a fireplace. It is impossible. You're not going to get that heat out of just typical wood or whatever.

Speaker 3: 39:13

No chance. I think I'm getting the second one too. Go ahead, all right.

Speaker 2: 39:18

Not, but a month later we come to Susan ran court. She too was a student. This one was at Central Washington State College on April 17th 1974. He abducted her and he murdered her.

Speaker 3: 39:36

I'm had to been Bundy. Yeah, easy an abduction and a murder easy that was him next.

Speaker 2: 39:41

there's a lot of people dying in a lot of places, right, all right and I'm not yet, I'm not making fun or doing, you know, like recording.

Speaker 3: 39:49

I love the doubt.

Speaker 2: 39:49

No, no, no, no you're. You're casting the doubt. And look, did not everybody's a believer? I get that, don't. I would say, any of us are a fool if you just believe the first thing you read. Yes, I applaud you on that one man. Next we come to Rosa Parks. I'm kidding, it was not Rosa Parks, it was Roberta Parks. Roberta Parks was a student at Oregon State University. Again, like a month later, on May 6th 1974, she was abducted, raped twice and Murdered when are they know that part?

Speaker 1: 40:24

She was raped twice.

Speaker 2: 40:26

So much of this has to come from his, from him. Oh, he said he said that okay, I got you and as Matt will repeat, and I was, I'm not saying anything, as Matt will repeat and I will repeat he says a lot he says a lot three for me, yeah, yeah, so he's, he's remembering, back saying not even remembering back, they're just.

Speaker 3: 40:45

They're talking to this guy and they're saying do you remember Roberta Parks?

Speaker 2: 40:50

Maybe was that the chick on the bus? I don't know. You tell me?

Speaker 3: 40:53

Yeah, well, roberta, she had. She had dark hair. Yeah, that was her. Yep, yeah, that was me.

Speaker 1: 40:57

Well, that's the other thing all these girls kind of look at like this is the other one which we will get to absolutely that'll definitely come into play next in line.

Speaker 2: 41:04

His fifth Murder victim Was Brenda Ball. Now, this one was not a student, that's not his MO. Student women are okay, women who are students, not necessarily his MO. But on June 1st 1974 this woman jumped into Bundy's car outside of a bar in and then ended up going to his place for sex and a strangulation. Is that what he offered?

Speaker 3: 41:32

Yeah, that's what he said you don't like pizza. So so Brenda Ball not a student went to his place for sex and strangulation, but no death. Oh, she's dead as fried chicken. Okay, I didn't read that she's dead. I thought because some women like sex and strangulation.

Speaker 2: 41:48

No, she. She went for the like comfort of the sex, but say for the say for the strangulation.

Speaker 3: 41:52

And so she was the one that blamed it on Bundy she's dead as fuck. Then who blamed it on Bundy? Bundy blamed it on blind Gotcha Gotcha.

Speaker 2: 42:00

That's four as fried chicken. Wait, wait, wait.

Speaker 3: 42:03

Oh, I see we're keeping trying, I got, I got, I got. No, I'm just I'm being a dick now, but no, I mean that could be around the four.

Speaker 4: 42:09

That's looking like four.

Speaker 3: 42:11

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:12

Yeah, there's a lot of signs pointing to this guy being a bad dude. Was he ever in Whitechapel? Could have been, yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:18

He might have been there twice.

Speaker 2: 42:20

Yeah, he did eat there, he was there for the hundred hundred year or night. Looking at the dates here at 90, 90 year anniversary.

Speaker 1: 42:26

Anniversary.

Speaker 2: 42:26

Yeah, next we move on to poor George Ann Hawkins, a student at the University of Washington, and he's back to school girls students, I should say on June 11th, not, but 10 days later. I should say 10 days after Brent de Ball, june 11th 1974. She was abducted, knocked unconscious, drove off site and strangled, which means to death. All right, say the next word, though. He claims, he claims he spent the entire night with her body before returning to where he'd abducted her, which was actually now a crime scene, to fetch her earrings and shoes with that corpse still in his car. So picture, cover evidence. So picture in your mind this is an alley right, a Jack the Ripper alley.

Speaker 1: 43:18

Right.

Speaker 2: 43:19

They're investigating this alley because that's where this chick was last seen. So they're looking all over this alley for whatever they can find. He had ended up parking his car in a parking lot and took her to the next to the alley.

Speaker 1: 43:31

Right.

Speaker 2: 43:31

So that's where he ended up, just making sure like, oh man, you know, when I was there, shit, I knocked her earrings off or she lost a shoe or whatever. That felt during the struggle, Right? So he went back just to the parking lot, which was again the crime scene is not put feet from him, and he drove there to get the stuff to make sure that it wasn't. You know that the police didn't get it first To have evidence.

Speaker 3: 43:52

But, how you said Jack the Ripper stuff and try to say these things that will live in the minds of people forever. Sure, and if you know you don't got long on this earth and you know you did some of these things, the more you put out there and making you to be a monster, the more we're sitting here on a podcast in 2023 still talking about fair.

Speaker 4: 44:10

Right, right yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:11

You want to pump numbers up?

Speaker 3: 44:12

Not even pumping the numbers up, but just making things sound like what this guy killed. Some head editor took her to like sleeping with a body.

Speaker 1: 44:19

Don't you think, though, that there's probably things that he had told in private, like when investigators that were like, okay, like we talked about with Samuel L, like things that he said that were like, well, only he's not, we didn't put that out in the media or we didn't offer him that information, like he offered it to us, something that wasn't out there and like widely known, that they could tie to him and go well, he had to have been there.

Speaker 3: 44:43

But how could you tie like sleeping in bed with a body or things like that?

Speaker 1: 44:46

Just the abduction part or you know the body where it was left. You know they found a lot of that.

Speaker 3: 44:52

A lot of that. There was some places where they said that he left the bodies or less love, and they could go there and they maybe found like one, like I'm saying, this guy, this guy is a murderer. There's no if ands or what's about it, what you're saying.

Speaker 3: 45:03

But, when it goes in the theory about him, like was it just him? Was he? Was he a copycat killer? There was a lot of psychiatrists, psychologists that said you know a lot of people that profile. They were like I don't think it was just him, like I think he did murder people, but was he working with somebody? Is there another guy still out there? Was there somebody you know, just cause somebody ends up dead or just cause you know an abduction or rape. That stuff happens every day.

Speaker 3: 45:28

It's just not as much in social media as it is today, but back then it was a big thing.

Speaker 1: 45:33

The way we talked about in the white chapel when Zapp started it off. It was two murders that weren't Jack the Ripper, that were in the same area, very close in, like how the how the crimes went down. So yeah, I could see that.

Speaker 2: 45:45

So yeah, I mean. So Jack the Ripper was unique to the extent that his murder, every single one of those murders, was consistent to the, to the extent that he would knife them, slice their throats first, and then do whatever he had given a short amount of time. Those first two murders in the white chapel did not go down that way, neither did the last two or three. He just had the five in the middle, that for which he took credit according to letters sent to news outlets. But again, that's a whole other podcast Tune into that. One Don't sleep on that one.

Speaker 1: 46:14

That one's already out yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:16

So yeah, and again I see where Matt's going. This and I I can't disagree with that to the extent that, with respect to George Ann Hawkins, when this guy is, you know, in custody or whatever, or if he's trying to embellish his own, yeah, his own record.

Speaker 2: 46:32

he's just yeah, now tell you what those cops were so stupid. I went back the next day, right next to the crime scene. I was right there looking at them laughing and I grabbed a pair of earrings and a pair of shoes, I mean what has we'll get into with this guy?

Speaker 1: 46:45

I won't be surprised that that happened If he was there when the cops were there. They're like hey, hey, what's going on? You?

Speaker 4: 46:50

need directions, or yeah?

Speaker 1: 46:52

No, no, no. Yeah, I think there's some stuff that maybe he's going to come later on with this. I could be wrong on that, but I think there's some things.

Speaker 3: 46:58

Hey look, there's not when there's plea bargains involved. Nothing to do with that, I'm just talking about evidence.

Speaker 1: 47:03

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, there's evidence coming. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2: 47:08

Next we move on to poor Janice odd. On July 14th 1974, again like a month after his last victim, he abducted this woman in broad daylight at Lake Sammamish State Park, and that chick was never seen alive again.

Speaker 3: 47:28

Could we strike his last victim from the record please, sir Janice Ott? Yes, why. No, you said, you know much like his last victim. I said could we please strike that?

Speaker 1: 47:38

Oh, saying that a victim? No, I'm just like nevermind.

Speaker 3: 47:41

Like in a court case. I was like oh.

Speaker 4: 47:42

I see I got. I'm sorry, I was like Jesus Christ.

Speaker 3: 47:46

What the fuck? That was never proven.

Speaker 2: 47:48

I got alleged alleged victim. Approach the bench To be clear self alleged victim, Anyways, yeah, so poor Janice was not. She was hanging out at the state park and never seen alive again. Dave, if I'm not mistaken, you know a bit of a backstory on this one.

Speaker 1: 48:05

Yeah, actually go through the next one, and it's the two that are tied together.

Speaker 2: 48:08

Okay.

Speaker 1: 48:09

So what I? You know what I saw. So well watching this thing was cool.

Speaker 2: 48:13

On that next one, same day, same location, we come to Denise Nassland Same day not, but four hours later, same spot. She was abducted in the same fashion as Janice, and she too was never seen alive again.

Speaker 1: 48:34

Yeah, so the unique thing about these two was that, like Sammamish is that how you say that?

Speaker 3: 48:40

Sammamish, sammamish.

Speaker 1: 48:41

Sammamish. That particular day there were thousands of people there, thousands, so it was like a crowded day. There was like events going on. People were playing games and everybody's just hanging out and having a good time at this beach, this lake and beach area. Ted shows up and he's got like his arm in a sling, I think it was, or a cast, and he's walking around like approaching people, saying hey, my name's Ted and you know how you doing. And he makes small talk. And then he said you know numerous people that day. Could you help me women, could you help me come to my car here and get my boat off? I have you know what do you call those little boats Like a Tamra or what's the term?

Speaker 2: 49:22

I know what you're trying to say.

Speaker 1: 49:23

I don't know what it is, we'll just say boat.

Speaker 3: 49:25

It's funny he didn't have rocks on his roof.

Speaker 1: 49:27

He didn't have rocks. I don't get that one.

Speaker 3: 49:29

He said help him get his boat off.

Speaker 1: 49:30

Get his boat off. Oh nice, yeah. But anyway, he was telling these girls hey, could you come help me get my boat down? You know, my arm's broken and I can't get it. Catamaran, catamaran, okay, that's what the term you use Catamaran.

Speaker 3: 49:43

Isn't that a big thing yeah?

Speaker 2: 49:44

I thought catamaran's a big thing.

Speaker 3: 49:45

Yeah, catamaran's a pretty big.

Speaker 2: 49:46

This guy was just his little, his little, his little his little sloop, his little sloop.

Speaker 1: 49:50

So, anyway, he has these girls come over and when they start approaching the car they see there's no boat and many of them would get freaked out and run the other way, you know, and think like, and then he finally got his story together to go. No well, you know, the boat is at my parents house.

Speaker 2: 50:04

Yeah what you heard me say when I said could you help me with my boat. What I meant was could you get in my car with me to go to my parents to go get the boat?

Speaker 1: 50:12

Right, and if we haven't mentioned already, Ted was a decent looking guy, good looking guy. When he'd approach these girls, like when you're kind of good looking guy, decent looking, a lot of times it'll right off the bat. They won't, you know, maybe they'll have small talk with you because they're attracted to you. Well, this Janice was going through a separation at the time. She was, you know, kind of maybe checking them out a little bit when they were talking back and forth. This is from witnesses around them.

Speaker 3: 50:37

Yeah, he was very seventies looking.

Speaker 1: 50:38

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 50:39

And he, he hung out with tripper and stuff.

Speaker 2: 50:40

Dude. So I was just saying that to Dave earlier. Sorry, dave, I'm sorry to cut you off like that dude. His original mug shot. He looks like Larry.

Speaker 1: 50:49

Larry's a little neighbor, absolutely Larry, larry, dallas. So that girl went off with him. According to the people that are around there, they had a little bit of small talk and she agreed to go with him, never to be seen again. Now, the second girl that, denise, was there with a group and actually with a boyfriend, and I think she went off to the bathroom or something was within, within earshot of him, of the boyfriend.

Speaker 1: 51:09

he could kind of see her talking to this guy and there again heard the name Ted thrown out there and something. Saw her walk off with Ted and thought oh, she's probably just going to help him with something. Didn't really think anything, wasn't threatened by it. When minutes turned into hours, then he called the police.

Speaker 1: 51:26

And by that time, this other girl, you know, people were looking for her, the Janice girl who was four hours earlier, I believe. And it created all these people, because if you walk around with a sling on or a cast, people are going to notice you, sure. So there were, there were hundreds of eyewitnesses thousands of eyewitnesses but I know they interviewed a ton of them and they all Ted and a tan Volkswagen Is that where they came up with the composite sketch. Yeah, Was that the yeah Okay?

Speaker 3: 51:54

But it was funny when you say the parts of the cast and stuff. What led to the one girl, liz's, suspicion of how weird this guy was. Not only the sketch, but she also found pieces of cast plaster of Paris. Is that what it is, plaster of Paris? Yeah, that stuff. He would use that to make the cast and like she asked him about her, whatever he was like, oh it's some art project from school or something like that. That was one of those things that led to like her suspicion of like this guy's, not some, some, some's off.

Speaker 1: 52:20

Some's off with it. Yeah, did you use your cast to pick up chicks when you had that, when I had my broken ankle football.

Speaker 3: 52:25

yeah, me and I can't. I don't know Chris, just a Chris. But I remember the cool part was cause we had crutches, you could leave class like 10 minutes early just like wander around the hall.

Speaker 1: 52:35

Yeah, you guys both had the. They had the cast on.

Speaker 3: 52:37

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 52:38

Did you guys do the kid and play dance?

Speaker 3: 52:40

Yeah, with the cast. Yeah, that's cool. That's cool Cool back in the day. That's fantastic. That's a throwback. Yeah, kid and play if anybody knows about that out there, you're cool, to be clear the original kid or, I'm sorry, house party.

Speaker 1: 52:50

House party.

Speaker 2: 52:51

They remade that, I think.

Speaker 1: 52:53

They had like a two house party two and house party three.

Speaker 2: 52:55

They did the originals that were back in the nineties but they remade that in very recent years.

Speaker 3: 53:00

House music.

Speaker 1: 53:01

I guess it was that good. I live in the nineties man, I don't see any.

Speaker 2: 53:04

I'm telling you as you asked me. I'll tell you the nineties was 10 years ago. In eighties too obviously.

Speaker 1: 53:09

But yeah, Zaps, anyway, with these two a lot of eyewitnesses.

Speaker 2: 53:13

Well, after Denise, after the little incidents at the Samamish State Park, he moved to Salt Lake City, utah, in August of 1974, two of all things, further, his legal studies, and this is the best part dude, this cat maintained a job at, of all places, washington State's Department of Emergency Services. This is one of a number of entities responsible for searching for missing persons. That's what.

Speaker 3: 53:43

Dave said it was a help.

Speaker 2: 53:44

Dude, instead of a hindrance. Dude, absolutely. It's like he worked with the cops doing whatever earlier and now he's doing the this. Keep your enemies closer right, and then they keep and keep your friends close, enemies close. There was the answer to his employee.

Speaker 1: 53:59

So yeah, he is working in his meantime, and just in plain sight this guy is. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 54:05

This for damn sure, was one of those politically appointed jobs. Look, I do. I've seen this happen, I got. I have friends of mine in the political world that would go up. They're in law school doing whatever in law school, but they still maintain employee by some senator, some rep, some government job, some kind of something Like that was a thing even back in the seventies I'm sure long before that.

Speaker 1: 54:28

So yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 2: 54:29

I'm getting a check, plus I'm going to law school, plus I'm killing chicks Like that's cool. Man Don't want it all.

Speaker 3: 54:36

Think of like what you said. With that, though, I mean I'm just putting it out there, I'm not being like political or anything on the podcast, but with Pennsylvania, like if you go to a state school, I believe if you put six years back into the state, that your school should be free, just all this education that Bundy's getting I'm just saying for putting your kids through school. I know it's very expensive, but I think if you give the state back six years, I think that your college should be free. That's just me Interesting Putting it, putting that out there.

Speaker 2: 55:05

That is interesting.

Speaker 4: 55:06

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 55:06

I don't agree with it, but I think it's interesting. Well, lo and behold, wouldn't you know it? Not, but a month later, september 6th 1974, two hunters discover the remains of George Ann Hawkins, janisot and Denise Nassland near the Lake Sammamish State Park. There they are. So that's the first. That was the last three that we mentioned. So I just went through eight murders.

Speaker 3: 55:33

That was the last three, seriously, and those three are where he said go find them in Sammamish Park, sammamish, sammamish.

Speaker 2: 55:42

That's where he just simply I'm sorry, it's not even he. They the bodies were found.

Speaker 1: 55:48

Shortly after yeah.

Speaker 3: 55:49

So I'm I mean I think it's like the cops, or people walking around, or hunters, hikers, two hunters.

Speaker 2: 55:55

Two hunters found these three dead bodies. Now I have a sneaking suspicion that Matt is going to say well, of course, why wouldn't I take credit for that? Sure, I'll just mess with you.

Speaker 3: 56:06

No, I mean, the dead bodies are the dead bodies. I'm sure they were eyewitness accounts themselves and they interviewed themselves as dead people and they were like, yeah, it was him.

Speaker 1: 56:16

Well, the other thing was this is two months later, so the bodies are probably still-.

Speaker 3: 56:20

They're recognized, oh yeah, but they're still decomposed too. It depends where they're at.

Speaker 1: 56:23

They're definitely decomposed, but what I'm saying is-.

Speaker 2: 56:25

You're looking like two months. You're still going to know what they look like.

Speaker 3: 56:28

But you're out there in the middle. I mean there's coyotes out there. Have you ever seen what they do to deer in like two weeks?

Speaker 1: 56:33

Them damn coyotes. Yeah, I don't know. Well, we'll get into that later.

Speaker 3: 56:36

I mean, I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 2: 56:37

Dude, a friend of mine had a dog. So a friend of mine lived in Arizona and they had a little dog and this little and I swear on these dudes, I'm going to get a goddamn dog, but anyway so they had this little dog and the little dog got away, escaped the yard, did whatever. They found the dog a day or two later with its butt like eaten out, like I mean- oh Jesus. Wow, I'm saying its rear section was completely gutted Basically Is it still alive? Basically, what they-.

Speaker 3: 57:05

I think the butt was ate out. I think it's dead.

Speaker 2: 57:06

No, this dog was his deadest fried chicken. But they took this dog to the vet or the wherever, and not because not to fix it, because it was fucking dead. But they took it to the vet. Like what happened? What could have done this? The vet was A fucking cabaret. The vet was basically like all right, look from what I can gather. First, this dog was. It might have been raped by, but it doesn't matter. And by raped I mean by a coyote, but no matter what, a coyote ate this dog's butt.

Speaker 1: 57:32

Oh shit.

Speaker 3: 57:33

Out. That's wild. They call them the investigators. Like this dog has been raped. Who witnessed this?

Speaker 2: 57:40

It's possible that a coyote is going to want to do his thing and just you know Go at it. Go at it with a dog. I mean dogs have sex with their dogs. A coyote is kind of like a dog, true.

Speaker 3: 57:48

Yeah, the coyotes are like the hyenas of Central PA.

Speaker 2: 57:51

Yeah that would be-.

Speaker 3: 57:52

They're like a weird creature. They're awful dude.

Speaker 2: 57:54

They're awful. They are a pestilence in this area.

Speaker 1: 57:57

That would be a brutal way to go To get raped, that bad, to get butt raped by a coyote and then eaten by the butt and then, after it's done, yeah, yeah, that's pretty terrible. Oh, that's pretty bad.

Speaker 2: 58:06

So anyway, I can't say that these there was any evidence of these chicks being having been butt raped or anything like that, but if, nonetheless, their bodies in fact were discovered, that I can't say that it was. They linked it to Ted at this point, but they for damn sure found the bodies.

Speaker 3: 58:24

No, in no way, like when we go through this, am I trying to support this guy in any way, totally understood. It's just that a lot of these things, when they just start popping out here, here, here here as we'll see later on in the story maybe that a lot of this can it can mesh up with a lot of the reasons this guy is saying this stuff.

Speaker 1: 58:43

In other words, when you're already caught in jail, gonna get killed anyhow, and you might as well just start making shit up too.

Speaker 3: 58:47

But not even making shit up, I just just Connecting yourself to crimes at once. Just why we're still talking about this guy today. Like this stuff is from. What he said to is just mind blowing. You would not think.

Speaker 1: 58:58

If you kill three, eh, if you kill 30.

Speaker 3: 59:01

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 59:02

There's books, movies. That's cred. Yeah, that's cred.

Speaker 3: 59:05

And that's like another thing, like when we look at this guy like the cred you say, but then there's guys out there who we haven't got to like, like Gacy dude, where he's like the cred you say.

Speaker 4: 59:14

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 59:15

But this dude's like, if you don't believe me, like I right down there like check, check them, count those bodies, dude, that's fair.

Speaker 1: 59:21

Well, there was one that we. That's right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 59:24

You know that smell. Yeah, go check that shit. That's me. You can't just smell that yeah.

Speaker 1: 59:29

Well, what was the one we just did that? Oh, it was the police officer guy that was the one down in Florida. Oh, okay, he was real concerned when he met one of these big, big names. I forget who he met in prison, who? Was that and the guy was most concerned with like how many did you kill? It might have been Bundy, might have been. He was like how many?

Speaker 1: 59:49

did you kill? I just wanted to make sure, like he didn't want to make sure, his number wasn't more than his. So I get what you're coming from. I remember, oh man, why can't?

Speaker 3: 59:56

I remember that cops name but also in you got to figure too with a lot of cops and things like that. And the court, the court's a very strange, weird place. But there's things like plea bargains and different things like that where the more that you can give up like we can help you, we can help you, we can help you what else do you know? Do you know anything about this? Do you know anything about that? And I think guys in his situation would embellish, but then again the dude did a lot and none of it is acceptable. It's just that. How much of it really? Can you really say where it is?

Speaker 1: 1:00:31

Yeah, we'll find out. I think.

Speaker 2: 1:00:32

I think we will find out. Hey guys, can you wrap it up? Oh man, what did I tell you, man, what did I tell you?

Speaker 3: 1:00:40

Much like that coyote that got butt raped.

Speaker 2: 1:00:42

No, the coyote did the butt raping.

Speaker 3: 1:00:46

That's right it was a small dog. It was like a little Chihuahua or something. Oh my God, the horror.

Speaker 2: 1:00:50

Like a Taco Bell dog got its butt eaten out Wow.

Speaker 3: 1:00:53

Yeah, poor coyote, poor guy Coyote, poor coyote.

Speaker 1: 1:00:57

Man, this is a lot to cover this is. I mean we're only maybe a third of the way in maybe half.

Speaker 2: 1:01:03

I don't know, man. We'll say who's to say.

Speaker 1: 1:01:05

Well, you know, with Dahmer went three parts. I'm not saying there's gonna be three parts, but there's a lot to cover. We got a lot of cool side stories going on. I think this is a good one. So, yeah, we'll definitely be back with at least a part two.

Speaker 3: 1:01:17

At least a part two.

Speaker 1: 1:01:18

Maybe a part three.

Speaker 3: 1:01:19

Who knows? You don't even know. You don't even know yeah with Zapp's facts, we have the stuff that we're getting in here. I mean, this is a good one. Dog rapes.

Speaker 1: 1:01:30

There's a lot. I hope you're entertained. Zapp did a lot of research, matt did a lot, I did a lot of research. Matt's got all his stuff fun facts over there. We're doing a lot. So if you're enjoying this and I keep saying this, hit that five star rating go in there, leave us a review. It's really gonna help us out and tune back in next week for at least a part two, and I guess that's it for now, so we'll catch you where.

Speaker 2: 1:01:50

On the flip side If we don't see you sooner, we'll see you later. Peace ["The Old Dirty Basement"].

Speaker 3: 1:01:57

Thanks for hanging out in the Old Dirty Basement. If you dig our theme music, like we do, check out the Tsunami experiment. Find them on Facebook. Their music is available streaming on Spotify and Apple and where great music is available.

Speaker 1: 1:02:10

You can find us at Old Dirty Basement on Facebook and Instagram and at Old Dirty Basement podcast on TikTok Peace, the Audi 5,000. ["the Old Dirty Basement"].