Peek behind the curtain of one man's chaotic journey from a troubled childhood to notorious cult leader; we unravel the enigma of Charles Manson. As we guide you through the grim coal regions of his youth, you'll grasp the depth of despair that forged a life etched with crime and madness. Our exploration doesn't just recount Manson's early run-ins with the law, but it invites you to ponder on the cracks within the very fabric of society that may have swallowed a misguided soul whole.
The story continues as we traverse through Manson's stints in reform schools, his early criminal ventures, and the unfolding of his twisted legacy. Through anecdotes and parallels with modern societal issues, we paint a picture of a man dancing on the edge of sanity, struggling under the weight of an identity shaped by early hardship and systemic failures. And as we dissect his bizarre public persona, we question the nature of notoriety itself and its bizarre hold over the public imagination.
Finally, we reflect on the impact of Manson's actions on his family and society, leaving a legacy that lingers like a shadow over his descendants. The podcast doesn't just present a series of events; it's an invitation to a broader dialogue about nature versus nurture, the power of perception, and the human capacity for resilience in the wake of evil. Join us for this compelling narrative, and share your thoughts with us – your engagement is the heartbeat of our show.
Sounds:https://freesound.org/people/frodeims/sounds/666222/ Door opening
https://freesound.org/people/Sami_Hiltunen/sounds/527187/ Eerie intro music
https://freesound.org/people/jack126guy/sounds/361346/ Slot machine
https://freesound.org/people/Zott820/sounds/209578/ Cash register
https://freesound.org/people/Exchanger/sounds/415504/ Fun Facts Jingle
Thanks to The Tsunami Experiment for the theme music!!
Check them out here
SUPPORT US AT https://www.buzzsprout.com/1984311/supporters/new
MERCH STORE https://ol-dirty-basement.creator-spring.com
Find us at the following
Peek behind the curtain of one man's chaotic journey from a troubled childhood to notorious cult leader; we unravel the enigma of Charles Manson. As we guide you through the grim coal regions of his youth, you'll grasp the depth of despair that forged a life etched with crime and madness. Our exploration doesn't just recount Manson's early run-ins with the law, but it invites you to ponder on the cracks within the very fabric of society that may have swallowed a misguided soul whole.
The story continues as we traverse through Manson's stints in reform schools, his early criminal ventures, and the unfolding of his twisted legacy. Through anecdotes and parallels with modern societal issues, we paint a picture of a man dancing on the edge of sanity, struggling under the weight of an identity shaped by early hardship and systemic failures. And as we dissect his bizarre public persona, we question the nature of notoriety itself and its bizarre hold over the public imagination.
Finally, we reflect on the impact of Manson's actions on his family and society, leaving a legacy that lingers like a shadow over his descendants. The podcast doesn't just present a series of events; it's an invitation to a broader dialogue about nature versus nurture, the power of perception, and the human capacity for resilience in the wake of evil. Join us for this compelling narrative, and share your thoughts with us – your engagement is the heartbeat of our show.
Sounds:https://freesound.org/people/frodeims/sounds/666222/ Door opening
https://freesound.org/people/Sami_Hiltunen/sounds/527187/ Eerie intro music
https://freesound.org/people/jack126guy/sounds/361346/ Slot machine
https://freesound.org/people/Zott820/sounds/209578/ Cash register
https://freesound.org/people/Exchanger/sounds/415504/ Fun Facts Jingle
Thanks to The Tsunami Experiment for the theme music!!
Check them out here
SUPPORT US AT https://www.buzzsprout.com/1984311/supporters/new
MERCH STORE https://ol-dirty-basement.creator-spring.com
Find us at the following
Thanks for tuning in to the old dirty basement. On today's episode we're covering Charles Manson.
Speaker 2:Oh, part one of who knows how many man. This guy is a cultural icon and just a crazy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, axl Rose actually had a shirt with Charles Manson on it. So did a lot of other people at the time. Oh, I forgot about that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, remember this big, big concert. I did.
Speaker 3:I was not there, but I've seen pictures.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we hope you enjoyed this one and, speaking of which, if you are, please leave that five star rating on Spotify, on Apple, you can leave a written review and sit back, relax and enjoy our coverage of Charles Manson.
Speaker 4:This is the old, dirty basement home to debauchery, madness, murder and mayhem. A tear filled train ride deep into the depths of the devil's den with a little bit of humor history and copious consciousness.
Speaker 2:I'm your announcer shallow through.
Speaker 4:your hosts are Dave, matt and zap. I love you, matthew McGonaghan, all right.
Speaker 3:All right, All right hey this is Dave, matt and zap, and welcome to the old, dirty basement.
Speaker 1:We're every week. We cover a true crime murder or compelling story.
Speaker 3:So sit back, relax and comprehend. Hello, hello, hello everyone, and welcome back to the old dirty basement. I am Matt, with me always is Dave and zap. How are you, gentlemen, doing? Well, I too am well. That's great. It's just it's getting. It's getting springtime here on radio world.
Speaker 2:No, it's fantastic. Don't let that heat wave fool you. It's.
Speaker 3:March it was hot. I got shorts on it's beautiful.
Speaker 1:You're thinking one more snowstorm. No, I'm hoping one more.
Speaker 3:This isn't 1994.
Speaker 2:Come on, fellas Dude you never know this right, it's Al Gore's climate, so who knows where it's going. Oh the change.
Speaker 1:So we got a big one today.
Speaker 2:Big one, it's huge, it's, it's amazing, it's a name you know, like this is right up there with Jack the Ripper.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And for me I was thinking about it growing up there were two images that even as a kid I knew like that's a bad man Hitler and Charles Manson Yep, Like I'd always equate that to, those are bad guys.
Speaker 3:Really those two.
Speaker 1:For, like me as a kid growing up, like those were the two images of people that I knew, like I remember from a young, young age seeing pictures of Charles Manson and knowing that guy. There's something wrong there and something bad probably happened there with that guy.
Speaker 3:Maybe like the swastika.
Speaker 1:Maybe that was the giveaway.
Speaker 3:The only thing that I did remember from this is it's not giving anything away in the story is like he did this dance one time. I think it was on like a date line or some show like that. I don't know if you guys remember that from growing up.
Speaker 2:No, not at all. But baby, who knows?
Speaker 3:No, he was like being interviewed. No, he's like what? Like this, I'm crazy. And he starts like doing like his hand motion. He starts like swimming.
Speaker 1:You guys remember that I thought I was Tom Cruise.
Speaker 3:I was gonna say, he jumped on couches, that was.
Speaker 2:Tom, that's right, tom Cruise. Once he announced he was in love with what's her name, whom?
Speaker 3:he ended up divorcing yeah. Yeah, but no, I think it was Manson Art Cruise.
Speaker 1:I do know what you're talking about, matt, but I don't remember a dance. But he had some very entertaining interviews.
Speaker 3:Yes, he was a performer.
Speaker 1:He was known for his dramatics.
Speaker 2:That's really the good way to put it. I mean, all around, charles Manson was, if nothing else, a performer, entertaining yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean in his own way.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:I think he was taller than Tom Cruise, actually by like an inch it's close?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's definitely close, but I didn't know. I knew that what Charles Manson, the end product of what happened, which we'll get to. I didn't know all this early stuff and I think it's interesting to get into that and that's where we're gonna start today, right, zap?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I call it the Manson Wonder Years the Wonder Years Because we didn't know too much about him. I knew none of this Me neither, until we researched.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it really fits a profile of you. Just knew something was going to go wrong. It happens in so many of these guys that we cover just bad childhood, bad upbringing, bad parents, what a non-planned pregnancy, like, yeah, it's just one of those, but how you? Oh, go ahead.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. I also didn't know how old he was.
Speaker 3:What do you mean?
Speaker 1:Like I thought he was younger, like for some reason in the 60s, when all this was going on. I thought he was like more early 20s.
Speaker 3:Oh, instead of like 40s or whatever he was.
Speaker 1:Like the age difference between him and the people that were involved in this I was a little surprised by. In my mind, I just always thought of him as very like you know like their age and all about the same Again.
Speaker 3:what what Zap was saying also is how, like he said, he was lined up for this lifestyle that he led. But is it? Is it always a thing Like? Does that mean, if you grow up like that, does it always mean that you're going to turn into like a wacky tobacco?
Speaker 2:I think this guy chose to be a jackoff.
Speaker 3:I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1:It's funny you asked that, Matt, because I actually wrote down a question. When we get to a certain point, I wanted to ask you guys something along those lines.
Speaker 2:I wonder if you and I had the same point. Yep, we shall see. We shall. Well, onward and upward, shall we On we go with Charles Manson. So this cat.
Speaker 3:I like that.
Speaker 2:This guy was born on November 12th 1934. Happy birthday to Ada Kathleen Maddox, who was only 15 years old at the time Starting young, my goodness and his father, colonel Walker Scott Now, everyone be clear, colonel was actually his first name.
Speaker 3:It wasn't even Fast and Nefarious.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 4:Paul Walker, walker, yeah, close oh no, he was in.
Speaker 2:Chuck Norris played him in a show.
Speaker 3:He was a Texas Ranger, yeah, texas Ranger yeah.
Speaker 2:So his dad with that name, colonel. He was a known con artist. Now this guy was prone to lead people to believe that he was in the military simply by virtue of his first name yeah Never played cards with a guy named Colonel.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, well, whatever, god God. So when Gold, when old Colonel found out that Ada was pregnant, he skipped town and he was never to be seen again. Charles never met the guy. Colonel Scott ended up dying of cirrhosis of the liver when he was 44. That means he's a drinker. Yeah, 10 years later he died of cirrhosis.
Speaker 1:I was thinking about that name. That's a. You know, that's a name. Like if I name my son Doctor Sure, you know, like you're giving, I thought of it as like stolen valor. I'm just like you're saying you're in the. That's dude, it's right on that is right on.
Speaker 1:I asked our buddy the Colonel and I, you know, I texted him. I said hey, is it? Is it a? Is it kind of a douchey move for somebody to name their kid Colonel? And he said yeah. I went. He said Sacky, which is what we say. That's not good. Sure, there's also major people named their kids, major, sure. And what was the other one?
Speaker 3:I think we mentioned Gunner Gunner and he said that was the less sackiest of them. All Of them all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I just think it's not a good move. I don't know anybody personally named Colonel other than Sanders. There's like you know, but that birth name I should say.
Speaker 3:But there's names you hear, like Hunter Fisher, like I see you're pushing your kid in that direction Skipper Right, I mean, I was a Barbie's cousin.
Speaker 2:That was. He was a friend of Gilligan's oh right. I thought that was the millionaire. Yeah, the skipper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but yeah, I just thought about that name. That's kind of a. I'm sure it's not a very popular name. I can't think of anybody else.
Speaker 3:I wonder if his dad was like a colonel. Maybe I don't know, or like in the army, or wanted him to be army successful Could be, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Odd. I just look at the girl who was 15 years old at the time and she was just giving it away. I'm saying Chuck's mom here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you think I was more well. I mean, other people still don't do it at 15 or whatever like that but back then it seemed like a lot more marriages at that age.
Speaker 2:100% girls were. You were an old maid if you weren't married by 16. True, yeah.
Speaker 3:Your life expectancy was like 60. Yeah, like, wow, they're ancient. Yeah, I mean we're not going back to like the Viking ages, where it's either like 20 and you have like a full family of grandkids. This was, yeah, 15, I don't know, starting off in a small town, wasn't he from like a small small town? Are we getting there? Yeah, we'll get there.
Speaker 2:He was born in a small town.
Speaker 3:Exactly I was waiting for it.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow. Well afterwards, after the old Colonel Skip Town, adelachdon II, and married a local guy named William Manson Three months before Charles was born. So she had one in the oven Like she had one in the hopper. She was, I'm sure, showing.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I don't know she latched on to this dude, bill Manson. Well.
Speaker 3:Bill found out he was just letting loose in there. He didn't care. You're gonna have to worry about nothing. He got no worries. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:It was like throwing a hot dog down a hallway.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's like hey, we're good, they're safe.
Speaker 2:No, this is not surprising though. So when Charles was actually born and I'm saying like when he was spit out of the womb neither Ada nor William had a name for him. Like his hospital records actually indicate no name Manson at the time of his birth.
Speaker 3:Okay, that's not necessarily odd, Is it no? I remember when I had my second child, we didn't know what the name was, so it had baby up on the board. Oh, really, yeah, for like a minute, really yeah, cause we didn't like know the name quite yet. We're like, oh my gosh, like ah, how about Matt?
Speaker 2:Baby. It just had Matt Baby on there. There you go Matt Baby, matt Baby, matt Baby, matt Baby, matt Baby, matt Baby.
Speaker 3:That's actually a Matt Baby is a urge overkill song. Matt Baby, you're out of time Did you ever hear that one? No, no, it's actually called Crack Baby.
Speaker 2:Matt Baby's. Fine, I'll have to look that one out, it's an urge overkill song.
Speaker 2:So I? It was surprising to me just as I, while I have no children of my own, I just see it all the time that these couples are it's just day one, stuff that they're working on there. So, oh, we're. They're going down the baby names and they're buying baby books and they're doing this, that and the other thing. But I don't know. I can see what you're saying, matt, that it's well, we know we're indecisive or we're torn between this one and that one and we're not committed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you get there and it's like oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Cause it's kind of for life.
Speaker 1:Right, and the baby comes out and that doesn't look like a whatever yeah, whatever name that you had, you gotta change it up.
Speaker 3:Well, ultimately Charles was chosen to be his name days later. That's not bad, that's a good name, chuck, hey, chuck, chuck.
Speaker 2:Alas, ada and William divorced not but two and a half years after old Charles was born. You're kidding me? I'm shocked, wow, I feel shocked, ps. So just a little on old Manson's mom here, on Charles' mom. So this broad was a terrible drinker, and I mean a terrible drinker, often leaving Charles with whomever was willing to take care of him while she was out drinking. Oh mom, I mean, just think about that. Hey man, can you take my kid? I gotta go get my drink. On Fun fact, when Charles was just shy of two years old, his mom sold him to a waitress in exchange for a pitcher of beer.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's pretty raw.
Speaker 2:Did you guys catch that?
Speaker 3:Where did you see this?
Speaker 1:I did hear that and read that in one of the articles.
Speaker 2:Indeed. That she's just she would go to this local joint and just get you know whatever.
Speaker 3:And she was like look man.
Speaker 2:I'll sell you my kid.
Speaker 3:Man, I want a pitcher of beer for this baby.
Speaker 2:Man, I'm sick and sick.
Speaker 1:That's pretty insane, wow.
Speaker 2:A pitcher of beer For a little chuck. In fact, one of Ada's brothers had to go retrieve Charles from the waitress and then actually of course didn't write police so dropped him off back home with his mother. It does leave one to one to them. What if he had stayed with that waitress? What?
Speaker 3:if it turned out better in his life. Yeah, he could have been like one cool dude.
Speaker 2:That's where I was going earlier. When you said, Dave, you'd said you mentioned you maybe have like a turning point or a question to ask. I thought that was maybe going to be your thing.
Speaker 1:No, it's going to be later on, but I did want to talk about where he was born. I guess in it was Ohio, right, but then moved to West Virginia.
Speaker 3:So, during Stamming.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and around this time was right after, right during the Great Depression was going on and all that and I mean that area down there it's like a big coal region and stuff. I heard a cool fact about like people that work and I never knew about this and maybe you guys can tell me if this is true or not.
Speaker 3:I don't know, I don't work.
Speaker 1:Well, but maybe you can tell me if you ever heard this.
Speaker 2:Just bang on the drums all day.
Speaker 1:So these, these mining companies would pay people in what's called a script Correct?
Speaker 2:So I sold my soul to the company store.
Speaker 1:And that they would have a store like a general store where they would. That was the only place you could use that script to go buy your you know, your food or whatever stuff you needed. So these people that were working in these areas were kind of locked into those areas 100% they couldn't leave, they couldn't go down to. Hey, let's go to the beach for the weekend, because the money they didn't have the money for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just thought that was a very interesting thing. I happened to be watching the thing on Appalachia and West Virginia and these distressed areas currently and they talked about that. Now this is back in the day. I'm sure they don't do that anymore, but he was living in that area around that time, I'm sure, when stuff like that was going on. So I don't know what their financial situation was, where she was working or what you know, but I'm sure it was rough and it didn't seem like a great area.
Speaker 3:No, they would overcharge so much too. In those places, like a loaf of bread would be like a dollar or something. At that time it's like insane amounts of money.
Speaker 2:All of their earnings paid by the company was ultimately given back to the company, because the company owned the store.
Speaker 1:So they're making all of it.
Speaker 2:It's ridiculous, just ridiculous.
Speaker 3:Or a good business.
Speaker 2:Well, that's fair. That's fair. Nobody forced their hands to take that.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Nobody. Nobody was a gunpoint. Like you have to work here, like you're an indentured servant. That does not exist.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but then again there was no other work in the area, so people are like shit, what do I do? It was depressing. You work for the money? Wow, it was a great depressing.
Speaker 1:I guess you sell your kid For a pitcher of beer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for a pitcher of beer. I wonder how much a pitcher of beer cost in chits, or what were they called? What did you call them?
Speaker 1:Scripps, scripps. That's it yeah.
Speaker 3:At least get some wings with the kid, you know what I mean. Intense, the pitcher of beer, or like a liver and onion, special, something more.
Speaker 1:You got to shop around a little bit.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean. They'd be like, damn that kid's ugly. Try to bargain.
Speaker 1:That's the pitcher of beer Bargain. This kid's got potential, he's going to be on the cover of Life someday.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, you could have said that.
Speaker 2:He could very well make the cover of Rolling Stone, or Rolling Stone, that's what it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, could very well.
Speaker 1:Could be.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty sure that the not the baby daddy, but the married from whence his namesake came, william Manson. I'm pretty sure he worked at a laundromat. If it wasn't a laundromat, it wasn't a dry cleaner, it was something Like it was. It wasn't, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 3:He's like pressing.
Speaker 2:It didn't take much. Like you, yeah, ok.
Speaker 1:I have one of the mothers, one of the jobs that she did later on in the story. I know something that she did for a fact because it ties into something, but I don't know what she was up to.
Speaker 2:Was it prostitution.
Speaker 1:She would have been what? No, well, not that there was something else, but here she's, what like 17. Probably about that two years.
Speaker 3:There it is. Hold on. I didn't even think about that. She is only 17. I guess it all comes back.
Speaker 2:It always comes back to where.
Speaker 3:So what's, what's your process? She was into the. She dabbled in the prostitution, didn't she?
Speaker 1:I don't know about this at this point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know what she was doing, maybe her parents, if?
Speaker 3:you're selling your kid for a pitcher of beer, Dang I know, I'm pretty sure you're dabbling in other things, yeah you're pretty desperate.
Speaker 2:Well, in fact. So not only was she that desperate to sit for a pitcher of beer, but a little more on this broad, when Charles was five years old, his mom was arrested for robbing a gas station. Now she robbed a gas station wielding a ketchup bottle as a weapon.
Speaker 4:Hmm.
Speaker 2:A ketchup bottle. Yeah, what's up with that?
Speaker 1:That's intuitive, though Not broke, though not cracked, correct, just like the bottle.
Speaker 2:Just the bottle Like.
Speaker 1:I don't know man you get hit with a ketchup bottle.
Speaker 2:I mean they're thick, that would hurt. They're pretty thick yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:As thick as the ketchup therein if it's Heinz.
Speaker 1:I hope it wasn't one of those like plasticky ones. You know what I mean.
Speaker 4:I don't know if they had plastic back then.
Speaker 1:Back then, yeah, probably not.
Speaker 3:You know how we stick with. Like the Dahmer triad, are we developing some sort of different type? Is there like the Chuck triad?
Speaker 2:taking over. I mean, look, so far this guy just had a shit mom, just an alcoholic mom.
Speaker 3:Well, dad's already going out of the picture.
Speaker 2:Two of them. That's two out of three ain't bad. My two dads are gone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I don't see anything. Wow, that's right, two dads.
Speaker 2:Two dads.
Speaker 1:I don't see anything about abuse other than she was going to sell him for a pitcher of beer, but I don't know if he was even aware what was going on at that point.
Speaker 3:But I mean, if you're willing to do that, there has to be some sort of abuse, like I'm sure she's not coming to the kid offering milk while he's crying or anything like that.
Speaker 1:That also means he was at the bar with his mom, like when she's normal.
Speaker 3:Well, that's normal. I went to the bar with my dad, oh sure.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I got no problem with that.
Speaker 4:Now.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't necessarily go to the. Well, ok, I guess it was a bar. I'm trying to church it up by saying oh was the Knights of Columbus.
Speaker 1:Or it was the Fish fry or something. It was a legion, it was a fish fry just because there was beer there. Yeah, true.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it was a bar and I turned out just fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think. I mean, I was in them, for sure.
Speaker 2:I haven't worried.
Speaker 3:I haven't murdered anyone. None of us are in jail. No, that's a plus. Yeah, yeah. Yes.
Speaker 2:That's a challenge. So for robbing the gas station with a ketchup bottle, she was arrested and sentenced to five years in jail. During those five years, Charles went to live with his aunt and uncle Now this is the same uncle who'd return him to his mother after she'd sold him for that pitcher of beer.
Speaker 1:His uncle Bill? Is that who it was?
Speaker 2:Yeah, OK, uncle Bill, all right. So she was paroled after three years, and after those three years Charles was reunited with his mom, who continued to spend her free time drinking. Ada and Charles ended up moving a few more times and Ada eventually joined Alcoholics Anonymous. Good for her. Maybe it's like look man, I've gotten enough, is enough Time to clean myself up, maybe? Anyway, at these AA meetings she met Lewis Cavender, whom she married when Charles was approaching nine years old. So this is man number three. You had baby daddy, then Bill Manson and then Lewis Cavender, instead of my three sons it's like my three dads.
Speaker 2:Correct Three dads, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 3:Lewis Cavender sounds like a great dude though. It's like it's such a distinguished name. I like that. Yeah, Lewis Cavender.
Speaker 1:So during this whole time that his mom was in prison he was living with that uncle Bill and Aunt Glenna and she was at the West Virginia Penitentiary which is in Mountsville, and so this prison was like rough, I mean big time. So they like he could go in and see his mom but couldn't physically get a hug from her or anything like that for the whole time that she was there and they tried to explain to him like, look, mom, he's probably gonna be here for five years, which ended up being what? Three, three and a half years. During that time he had started school, first grade, and they told a story about his first grade teacher Ms Varner was her name was a real ball breaker and they sent him off to school.
Speaker 1:He was already kind of a problem. They could tell there were little things that he was doing. This teacher didn't take shit. So she would basically put her favorite students in the front row and progressively as you get to the back, where the kids that were just gonna be a problem and the kid that was sitting the very last seat was like there's no hope for this kid. She was good at it. She could tell like these kids, this kid's not gonna amount to nothing and she would verbally abuse these kids.
Speaker 2:God damn.
Speaker 1:Well, sure enough, he showed up the first day of school and she picked him out right away. She already knew the gossip about the mom being in prison and all this put him in the last seat and like verbally, was abusing him all day in class. He went home running home crying to his uncle and back then, and even back then, back when we were kids, back when we were kids, you didn't even like your dad, be like hey, you don't cry. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Sure sure.
Speaker 1:You need to toughen up and this and that. Like they would always take the side of the teacher. What did you do that? You got in trouble. You're crying and no, no, they're making fun of me. Whatever, he had a cousin, joanne, who was two years older. That was Uncle Bill and Aunt Glenna's kid. They took one of her dresses. The father, you know Uncle Bill, said you're wearing this dress to school the next day and made him wear the dress in the class the next day.
Speaker 2:So this is what this kid's going through. He's gotten it from all angles. There's no hope.
Speaker 1:So he goes back that next day in the dress and of course gets bullied and made fun of and all that stuff like that.
Speaker 3:See, I saw a story that you were talking about him being bullied. I guess he got some of the older girls like to help him out, like on the playground. So there was these kids from his class that were bullying him. And then he got, he went and talked to these older girls. I guess they said he was like kind of persuasive, he like had a way about him and he got these older girls to like beat the crap out of like these younger kids for him.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:And then when they got called into the principal's office, the girls, I guess, took the blame. So it was kind of like a it was kind of like you know dude he's a pimp foreshadowing. Well, he tried that later life.
Speaker 1:Well, not only that, but his cousin, this Joanna, who was two years older, so seven at the time, told a story about now. This might've been a couple years later, maybe when he was like six or seven and she was, you know, nine or 10 or whatever eight or nine. There was a boy bullying him on the playground and she went over to intervene and got in the way and bit the kid and the kid ran off, you know crying. One of the teachers came over and said what's going on.
Speaker 1:Why did you bite him? Why was defending Charlie, my cousin, you know, and they asked Charlie about it. He's like I don't know what she's talking about. So he was trying to like, frame her and get her he's just sold her out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what he said. He was very persuasive. He would play like mind games and stuff.
Speaker 1:And the teacher knew like Joanne's a good student, she went and lied and they knew Charlie was a problem. So they kind of knew he was lying about it. But that's from this early age he was deceptive and doing stuff like that.
Speaker 3:Stop lying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, crazy.
Speaker 2:Man, things are already not looking good for this guy. Let's get him into school. Well, yeah, not just any school. By the time Charles was 13, he was already a bad kid. He skipped school all the time. He was already doing random acts of thievery and at this point, at the age of 13, he was placed in the Gibbalt School for Boys, or Jibo Jibo Grinneau, but Jibo. This was an all boys academy for bad kids. Shockingly, that was sarcasm. He hated it there. He hated it there. I mean, you're talking about discipline and rules and the manners and all kinds of stuff, the way to act. He ran away a few times and in fact, during one of his runaways in 1948, he robbed a grocery store and this was his actual first documented crime.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that Gibbalt School was like a Catholic school. They said it was just like you know, and he didn't do well with any of that stuff. Catholic boys school, yeah right.
Speaker 3:Actually going to like a Catholic coed school was hard enough yeah.
Speaker 1:I know. Well, they did say that he did when he did. I don't know if it was this early on, but they did give him an IQ test and he tested pretty high, like in the 120s.
Speaker 3:I didn't hear that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he wasn't a dumb kid, so he wasn't dumb, it was just that it had to be something he was interested in and whatever else like that. But back to after his mom's release from prison and all that. She was 24 when she got out, which would put him probably around eight years old, eight or nine, yep, eight or nine. And when she got out she got a job and it was called a Vans Never Closed Market. It was a grocery store and she would tell she told a story about. He would go in there, he would skip school and go over there and show up and she'd be like Charlie, what are you doing? You're supposed to be at school? Like he was playing hooky and he would go in and bug people in there for pennies.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:To buy candy and stuff. So he was like he would go up and give him like a sob story and get money. So it was already taking advantage of him.
Speaker 2:He was already a con man Already, a con man doing stuff like that. A chip off the old block from Colonel yeah.
Speaker 1:Yep and uh, you know she had her. You know, obviously she was in prison. For what would you say? It was like armed robbery and armed with a ketchup bottle, yeah, and then she got. She did allegedly get busted for prostitution, like Matt was alluding to and in Grand Larsony, which I don't know what exactly she did there, but that's where my question came up. So at this point in his life he's already had all these things happen. The mom's a bad influence, I would say at this point, because now he knows what's going on.
Speaker 3:Mom didn't bother. I had three fathers.
Speaker 1:So that's where the question comes up, and I think we asked in the beginning are you a product of your environment or is he just naturally bad?
Speaker 2:I think there was such a lack of environment for this guy, and that's just straightforward he had no guidance, zero guidance. He didn't get decent guidance until his mom went to prison and he lived with his uncle, and even then his uncle was busted in his balls. So then I would say he didn't get decent guidance until he was at least 13 when he made his way to the Jabal school, but by then he was already tainted.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:I agree.
Speaker 1:You've learned all those behaviors.
Speaker 3:But there couldn't have been somebody in that school maybe to like to see that the kid had problems or maybe like try to latch on them or be that you know father figure or whatever in his life. But I guess it's hard when you're at a school for bad kids. I guess they all need help.
Speaker 1:You know it's funny. I watched a movie that's eerily similar to this as far as the struggling mother with a young child and I was a little girl, and it's called the Florida Project on.
Speaker 3:Netflix Did you watch that? Yeah, with Willem Dafoe's in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, willem Dafoe's the superintendent or whatever at this motel outside Disney World and all these struggling families like live there.
Speaker 3:But that's just real life man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the mother, the daughter was like six years old and was learning all this behavior from the mother and was like flipping people off, spitting on cars, swearing, just doing whatever stealing stuff from the ice cream place, like it remind me a little Charlie Manson, but it, you know, it just made me think like how else is that kid going to act? That's how her mother is.
Speaker 2:That kid's going to grow up and be a piece of shit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, promise you so. A product of the environment, yet no environment to, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, I just a question I wanted to ask you guys. So yeah, check out the Florida.
Speaker 2:Project on Netflix. Very good, yeah, very good, matt. When you say that's real life, what are you talking about?
Speaker 3:In the Florida Project, like the way that these like it's people that have nothing, so they're living in, basically like motels. Okay, there's these motels you buy weekly. There's people constantly moving in and out. The people moving in and out are either, like you know, they just got out of jail drug dealers, people that have nothing, like there's no cars, they're riding bikes like places. Not to say it's a bad thing, but just the way that there's like no type of structure. You know, you don't know if you're going to be living there next week or if you're going to get, you know, kicked out because you got the money to pay. It's very interesting, but the way that it's filmed, like you can tell, like it's going on right now.
Speaker 3:It's not like you're looking at it in, like the 60s or 70s.
Speaker 1:Right, it's today. It made me feel like I was watching somebody's life. It's actually kind of movie.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 1:Like she would turn tricks to. Like you know, like the one guy she was turning tricks and stole all his magic bands is what you use to get into Disney, like four of them out of it. So this guy's on vacation trying to get you know some action. He's down there like his wife and family are at the other hotel and it's crazy, but it made me think of Charles, but it's people just doing whatever they need to do to survive hustlers.
Speaker 3:And we haven't, like none of us could even imagine you know what I mean. Like we didn't grow up like perfect, we had, you know whatever in our lives. We all had our little bits of shit.
Speaker 1:Like your grandma says yeah, everybody got their shit.
Speaker 3:But this, this was like, this was like where you, they were in the toilet, like pretty much just trying to get whatever they can to get out of there. Yep.
Speaker 2:All right Moving along. In 1949, charles was arrested for burglary and was sent to Boys Town in Nebraska. Now, within a week of being at Boys Town he escaped, stole a car and a gun and he hightailed it to Peoria, illinois, and committed two armed robberies on the way. Now he was arrested two weeks after being in Peoria for burglaring a local store at night. He was then sent to the Indiana Boys School, which was a reform school, not unlike the Gibalt School, for boys often beaten. Charles has since alleged that he was raped there by other students in 1951 at the age of 16. Charles escaped the Indiana Boys School. He was arrested in Utah for having stolen a car and driving it across state lines. That's like that Rico stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Rico.
Speaker 2:That's absolutely Rico. So from there he was sent to the Washington DC National Training School for Boys. I don't think the School for Boys is working. No, I think they need to reinvent something else here, because all these schools aren't really doing much. School for Boys, boys, town Boys.
Speaker 1:Town.
Speaker 2:Boys School, School for Boys. There was four of them over the matter of three years.
Speaker 1:Supposedly at Boys Town. There was a movie they made back in the day.
Speaker 3:Remember Dangerfield used that in Caddyshack. He might have mentioned it.
Speaker 1:I don't know, but there were two big actors back in the day I guess probably in the 40s when it came out that played in the movie and it was all about this Boys Town. I guess it was like a well-known at the time, prestigious play. All you're going to Boys Town. It was like well-known.
Speaker 3:What, what A well-known school for boys. Yeah.
Speaker 1:There was a movie that was made.
Speaker 2:I always thought of Boys Town, exactly as we had just read it. Yeah, I thought it was always just for shit-bag kids.
Speaker 1:It is, but they made a movie about it with two of the actors at the time that were like I'm gonna say that's not Rooney, what's his last name? He was out. You definitely know him. Out the board up running. Is it Mickey Rooney or?
Speaker 3:Mickey Rooney. That's who it was. It was in Boys Town, the movie.
Speaker 1:It was a movie, yeah, and it made this like blow up, like everybody thought, oh, you go to Boys Town, like that's. Because it was in a movie. They were like that's, that's a good place to go. No, I see, I understand now yeah yeah, yeah, they depicted it in the movie.
Speaker 3:Dangerfield. Use it in caddy shag is like I'm sure there's room for you boys town, yeah, something like that, like with the one caddy. He said like he had a sob story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, oh, dave, early on you had mentioned the, the, the interview, the in his obviously his later years. Yes where he was doing that dance or that, whatever kind of Whatever he was doing. I just envisioned him doing like multiple crane moves from karate kid. Fun fact, it was during somewhere in this stint of being all these random boy schools that's where he incorporated acting insane in hopes that people would either leave him alone or or basically fear him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did, I did read that too.
Speaker 2:So like a performance defense mechanism, yeah so if in fact, the the allegation that let's say he was raped, whatever by these boys in one of these schools during one of His times there, I mean you know again you're gonna. You're like a little dog that's backed into a corner right Like you're gonna growl and you're gonna scrap and you're gonna show your teeth. This guy did the same thing. His defense mechanism he would just act crazy.
Speaker 3:Flew around yeah that's what they say. If you like ever get sent to federal prison, like I mean, we're all some like handsome cats, like we went there we, we'd have some problems. Hell yeah, so yeah man either so they say like you know, punch some guy, just act crazy. Yeah, yeah, punch, punch the biggest dude in there and just go like act nuts.
Speaker 1:You'll be alright being trouble.
Speaker 3:That's it. That's free advice for anybody out there going to federal prison. I appreciate that you're welcome.
Speaker 1:I guess be able to use that. I guess, if you just flailing around for some people, which is not worth the hassle, Exactly, yeah, yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker 2:It's like trying to fight a homeless person. Homeless, that's such a politically correct name. A bum.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so if you're trying to fight a bum.
Speaker 2:if you are starting up a fight with a bum, you've already got a disadvantage because that guy's got nothing to lose, right he? He will come at you with anything and everything he's got, and God knows shopping cart. What kind of crazy he's got right.
Speaker 3:Oh, piece of chicken. Yeah, the shopping cart.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look if Charles Banson's mom can rob a gross or a gas station or grocery store with a bottle of ketchup, this guy could probably fight you with a chicken wing.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely, I want to talk to J Dubb about that too. How did she get five years?
Speaker 1:The catch a bottle the ketchup bottle.
Speaker 3:I guess it is a deadly weapon anything.
Speaker 2:That's crazy.
Speaker 3:That's true. I'm sure she couldn't afford a lawyer either, but I just think that's, that's certainly not one of JW's caliber.
Speaker 4:You do little money.
Speaker 2:So at the age of 18, almost 18, 17 and change so we just get 17?
Speaker 3:we went, we just missed it, we went to 16, 18. Yeah, well, I mean, he was still in.
Speaker 2:He was still in 17 years, 17 ag this time. So we're in early 1952. This cat was still at the Washington DC National Training School for boys. Old Charles decided to rape a boy. As a result of that rapage he was sent to the federal reformatory in Virginia, just outside of DC. While there he raped three other boys.
Speaker 3:Little rapey there, but all rapey little rapey.
Speaker 2:Rapy Manson, so released in 1954. He was 20 and a half years old. He went to live back with his aunt and uncle. These are the same ones from long, long ago, the ones that uncle bill, uncle Bill and Aunt Glenna.
Speaker 1:Aunt Glenna, yeah, and Joanne, the little cousin so this guy, this guy is hopeless.
Speaker 2:I mean at this point what, what can you do?
Speaker 3:What did you find the rabies stuff like I? I Deep dive man heard of the one rape, but I didn't know. He added he had it three and me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah wow, in later in later, later, much, much decades, decades later, interviews, charles would had actually said that he was bisexual. But, he claimed him that in the 20 teens or the very in the early 2000s or some shit, that he was bisexual. He basically said like, look, I don't care, I've been in prison so long, it's all the same, it's just a. It's just a warm, wet hole to me right he that one too, like I'm.
Speaker 1:I think that was the one, unless there was another rape that happened, what like in when he was in prison, or in boys school where he held a knife to the kid.
Speaker 2:So you know what? There's part of me that wants to take back what I had mentioned about his bisexuality, because rape is not in any Way shape or form of sexual or intimate thing. It is absolutely a crime of rage.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3:So it's been a public service announcement? Well, no.
Speaker 2:I mean, if you just evaluate, it doesn't take really long to figure that out. Yeah, it's so. From old Charles perspective, I mean, look at, this guy was just Down, trodden from the gate. I mean, he's, you know, okay, beaten up emotionally by his mom not bothering, beaten up by the uncle that made him wear a dress. Beat up by the teacher that made him sit in the back of class. Beat up by the local bullies. Beat up by the, the, the, the headmasters at these schools. Beat up by the, the older boys at these schools.
Speaker 3:So the rate, the rate was like an anger. It was correct, it was like a Something that's more animalistic than anything human, then I need to release it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it's. This guy had been just so, just a pent up, beaten and dominated by other people his entire life. It's not my chance to do it. I can do it to somebody else. A great point. I guess this is what you do.
Speaker 1:There is something that happened. It was a story actually. It was told by I later on when we get more into the. You know the stuff after when he's out. There was a story about a guy that had a first-hand account of something that happened that we'll talk about when we get to there. That Would make me think foreshadowing killing me was bisexual, because this was not under any kind, although it was in a way. I guess what we'll get there when he was a ladies man.
Speaker 3:When it comes like when we talk later on, like the dude was like daddy, long strokes.
Speaker 1:It was all about like but, but the bisexual like I mean, yeah, with his whole.
Speaker 3:Maybe there was like a little reach around, I don't know.
Speaker 4:You know what?
Speaker 3:you know little Chuck's into yeah. Damn little Chuck be like. Wait, who's hand is that? Oh, my goodness, chuck Walt, is that you? Oh Shit, what was that movie Um? The one with the guy from um, with the German guys to like? Sprockets no, not sprockets. Um no, they had a whole movie about him. He was the one that was in the movie from World War two, or no, it was a show. It was a weekly show, bob.
Speaker 2:Bob cream.
Speaker 1:Oh, oh, you talk about autofocus. Autofocus, yeah, I was willing to fool, willing to phone it will in the foes.
Speaker 3:He's like yo man, what are you doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Kind of a party man I go that was weird, and then he ended up being into it more than Bob Crane was yeah, but I could see, I could see Chuck being like that.
Speaker 3:I like you know the party and you're like man, chuck, is that your hand?
Speaker 1:There was another story that you know, before we move on to his older years here, that in 1947 he, he got to go home for the holidays, back to that uncle bill, and he is, what did he?
Speaker 2:get to go home? Or did he escape? No, that's where he ran.
Speaker 1:No, not not.
Speaker 2:He didn't escape prison or one of the boy schools.
Speaker 1:No, they actually Joanne, his cousin of all people who Seemed like she kind of didn't like him mostly. You know what I mean. For most of the shit he did as a kid said I can't. I can't deal with him being home or being away for the holiday. He should come home for Christmas.
Speaker 1:Okay so she talked him into, I guess, contacting the school like hey, let him come home for Christmas. So he got to come there for Christmas and she got sick. I forget what she had, if it was tuberculosis or like something like that but she, they were all getting ready to go to church and she was staying home like up in her bedroom. Everybody left but Charlie, and he was down there and he turned the shower on and let the shower run and she's like what is he doing? Like he's not getting a shower. She knew exactly what he was doing. He was getting into the gun cabinet to steal a gun. So the shower was running the whole time and he was in there like rooting around or whatever, and she was like petrified because it's guys nuts, you know.
Speaker 1:And then finally the family gets home and the shower still on and they go upstairs like Joanne, why is the shower on with Charlie? Charlie was down there. I think he was getting in the gun cabinet and they're like what you know. They go down and ask him and he denies it, but then they find the gun on him. So he was trying to steal a gun, even when somebody's trying to do something nice for the guy right. He steals from him, he does whatever. It's all about, charlie, you know.
Speaker 3:Man's, man's and family Christmas special. Yeah, all about the Charlie, no trouble.
Speaker 1:I just thought that was an interesting little story because it just shows you no matter what you try to do for this guy.
Speaker 2:He's gonna shit on you, he's gonna shit on you, just like he's been shit on himself.
Speaker 3:This is yeah, there's a chicken.
Speaker 2:Well, certainly he's made. He made the choice, but it becomes a matter of it. I will, however, I'll give you, matt, the idea of chicken, or the egg, like you know which, which came first yes. Was there a an existing disposition or, you know, it wasn't just a product. As a result, right.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I so I had read someplace and I apologize for the confusion I had read someplace that During these stints in the boys schools, he had escaped at one point, and during one of these escapes that I had mentioned, when he robbed a girl, I think it was the one where he robbed a grocery store Mm-hmm, it was that Christmas that was it might have been to that time.
Speaker 2:That was his first Documented crime. He's just on his way home. On his way home, on his way home and on the way he. You know, rob's a good kid's hungry. Do whatever like he probably stole a loaf of bread or some shit.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying it's like lay, lay, miss a robbs or anything like that, but you know, whatever the thing is with this guy, there they're, yeah, they miss her.
Speaker 1:There's so many stories out there on this guy. Literally there's Tons of books and you know, whatever, yeah and a lot of the stories that are out there came from from his accounts. You know people write it down and think it's factual.
Speaker 3:So that's a big leg allegedly.
Speaker 2:Right, and considering this source, you got to take anything this guy says with a grain of salt.
Speaker 1:Now I think this story, like these particular stories, were coming from Joanne the cousin, which, there again, she didn't like the guy.
Speaker 3:So she Elections.
Speaker 1:Of the story, it could be anything she could be making shit up just because she doesn't like him, you know, or just to get airtime, or whatever. Get you know an article in a magazine I've heard ever. So who's?
Speaker 3:to say. Well, back to the lecture at hand here. Uh he, but his first major crime was the stolen cars, correct?
Speaker 2:I mean, are we talking about going to prison?
Speaker 3:Yeah, his first major was the stealing of the cars.
Speaker 2:Burglary yeah, I understand. So he definitely stole. So there was a couple of things, yeah, for sure. So there was armed robberies. He stole a car and a gun. Okay, I mean this and that was in 49.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what I was looking at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm sorry at 49,. He was arrested for burglary.
Speaker 3:Right after that he escaped stole a car and a gun and then stole the car and the gun.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, that might be. That might be the one where he went to what's it called. He went back home for Christmas. It might have been that one, but again, even that he was. He was after that. Two weeks after that this was in Peoria in Illinois. He burgled a local store at night. So I mean, this is all this guy knows is how to steal. And that was all before. Like the boy rape, it's like Ezel.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he steal, he don't keel, he steal, he don't keel, all right.
Speaker 2:So by now what he's like? 20, 21, 21, 21, 21. All right, so all grown up and, not surprisingly, onto prison Now, 21 years old, good old Charlie got married to Rosie Jean Willis. What you?
Speaker 3:talking about.
Speaker 1:Willis yeah.
Speaker 3:These names are great. Like you don't hear these anymore. Like.
Speaker 2:Rosie, rosie Jean.
Speaker 3:Colonel. Colonel for sure, joanna.
Speaker 2:Joanne fabrics yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And I'm not decidedly coincidental that Charles birthnamed father. What's his name? Manson. I'm almost positive he worked in a local laundry, like you know, where they wash clothes.
Speaker 4:Oh really.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:All right, whatever, and we?
Speaker 3:yeah, okay, I mean not everybody's going to be a doctor's.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying no, no, that's not what I'm saying. No, no, I'm saying the Joanne fabric yes, and blah blah blah Washing clothes. Washing clothes, gotcha. It is quite coincidental Maybe that's just me being pretty stupid these two these two got married, moved to Los Angeles and they stole a car in Ohio in order to get the Los Angeles.
Speaker 1:Hey, you got to get there, man, you think she knew, like I wondered about that, like if she was aware of it was a stolen car.
Speaker 2:Charles shows up. Hey look what I bought today.
Speaker 1:Like I bought a car, or like it. Was she unaware, I wonder? I don't know Because I couldn't find whether she was in on it or not. I would imagine she would have had to know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, if a man and woman are having the sexy time she pretty much knows what you did yeah. Like he's not bringing the car home and she's like, oh, Chuck, you worked really hard for this.
Speaker 2:Like she knew she's fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, finances.
Speaker 1:I just can't believe how it must have been super easy to steal a car back then. This guy's like left.
Speaker 3:Pretty sure it was. It wasn't like how it was today.
Speaker 2:No computers.
Speaker 3:It's, it's all mechanical wires. Yeah, it's wiring yeah, boom, boom, and you're very, very simple. Screwdrivers. Spoon screwdrivers yeah, in the ignition you could just turn it. Well, something was in there to make contact.
Speaker 2:Hell, anything from, I want to say from the mid 90s or earlier, I could start that car with a paperclip. Oh really 100%.
Speaker 1:Wow, I just, yeah, just and plus back then it's so hard to track.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying when this car is, because it's not like you have a computer, you can look it up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, everything was so much simpler than.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this guy's back on his shit, again Back on his shit.
Speaker 2:So this guy and his lovely wife Rosie Jean Willis Charles was arrested, but he was sentenced to only five years probation.
Speaker 3:See, that's what I'm talking about Five years probation for something like that. His mom got five years in prison For a ketchup bottle For a ketchup bottle.
Speaker 2:So she's threatening lives.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but yeah, I guess, I guess.
Speaker 2:This guy stole a car, true.
Speaker 3:True, I agree. I agree Because doing a car is a victimless crime. It is it hurts no one. That's what you're paying $800 a month for. Just in case something happens.
Speaker 2:Fuck it. We should bankrupt the insurance companies and everybody go out steal cars. All right. Five years probation. Alas, not surprisingly, charles failed to appear at one of his probation hearings and fled to Indianapolis where he was arrested. As a result of that, he was sentenced to three years in prison. While in prison, old Rosie Jean gave birth to Charles Manson Jr on April 10th 1956.
Speaker 3:Poor kid Damn.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, damn, by 1957, she was living with another man oh, oh. Old Charles was released from prison in September of 1958.
Speaker 3:They say he never got to see his real kid.
Speaker 2:His biological didn't bother, yeah.
Speaker 3:So the mom left and was with this new guy and he couldn't track him down. That's messed up, man.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that, because I know he had other kids then. But one of the kids ended up committing suicide at some point.
Speaker 2:So I am not sure at all how many kids this guy has fathered.
Speaker 1:I mean who knows? Yeah, because he, just you don't even know yeah.
Speaker 2:I know of two that I can speak to. I know of two.
Speaker 1:Valentine or whatever. And then this kid.
Speaker 2:Valentine and Charles In Chuck Yep.
Speaker 1:And then maybe that I think it was like in 1993.
Speaker 2:I got to believe with a name like Charles Manson, and if Charles Manson is your father, yeah, well, he changed the last name you might commit suicide Changed a lot of it.
Speaker 1:His last name he took like the stepdads, so it was like Charles White or something like that. But still couldn't live with the fact that biologically, that's my dad. Like that guy, you know.
Speaker 2:There was a guy that Dave thinks reminds him of Hitler. Is that's my dad Not reminds me of Hitler?
Speaker 1:But that those two images. As a child, when I saw their faces, I'm like yeah, you know, I was the pictures of evil. I would have quated the evil, I mean the Hitler thing. I can't you know. You kind of knew, you heard about.
Speaker 4:Well, yeah, it did.
Speaker 1:The Manson thing. I, just to be honest with you, with Manson, I always thought he was a devil worshiper and like I didn't know what it was all about, just as a kid, like that's why it's interesting to find out where he came from and really what he was all about. Sure, which we will get into, but this early stuff.
Speaker 3:It was pretty religious. There was a couple of religious things thrown in there.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, where were we? Oh yes, Already in prison. His wife left, All right. One year later. One year later, Dave, I remember you and I talking about this one he was found guilty of cashing a forged US Treasury check and was sentenced to a 10 year suspended sentence and probation.
Speaker 3:So that's on top of his five. He was done with the five.
Speaker 2:He got to three years in prison, so he was on five years probation. He skipped probation and was picked up in Indianapolis, where he was then sentenced to three years in prison. He served his three years in prison. After those three years, one year later, he was guilty of cashing a forged US Treasury check.
Speaker 3:A lot of people do that though.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's how it's been. What's amazing about this at least to me, before we even get to Dave's story? So why did he only get a suspended sentence? A girl whom he'd been pimping at the time convinced the court that the two were going to marry and that he'd be a changed man as soon as they get married. I got this, he'll be okay. He'll be all right. Just let him get married to me, we'll be okay, well first of all, pimping ain't easy.
Speaker 3:No, it is not. Second of all, I don't think it was a very good pimp. No.
Speaker 1:Not yet, Not yet Well.
Speaker 3:I don't think back then it was yeah okay we'll get into that.
Speaker 2:That woman put herself on the line for him then. So what? In December of 1959, he went on and married that woman, leona Ray Candy Steven what a name.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like Candy Montgomery.
Speaker 3:I just like Leona Ray. I think that's a kick ass name, like.
Speaker 1:Country Singer or something. So that story about Zaps talking about that check, so that was May 1st 1959. That went down and it was a US Treasury check for $37.50. That was the amount and he tried to cash it at a Ralph supermarket, Nice I don't know what the hell, Ralph supermarket.
Speaker 2:But the Big Lebowski that's his only identification card is a Ralph supermarket.
Speaker 1:He stole it from a mailbox, which ended up being another crime.
Speaker 3:So now, it's federal to crime.
Speaker 1:So now, they had to get the secret service involved and there were two federal agents that came in to question him about it. They had to check there with his signature on the back. There were two of them in there. They were like hey, what's up with this, you signed it, you just want to admit it. And he was like no, you know, that's not me, I didn't do that. They got distracted for some reason, turned around and weren't facing him, turned around, the check was gone. So they both said that where the hell's the check? He must have swallowed it.
Speaker 1:He must have crumbled it up and ate it. So he's thinking I got on, you know, because I ate the check. There's no evidence, but the clerk at the supermarket, the arresting officer and then these two agents all testified. They saw the check. So he got hit with it anyhow, but I thought that was pretty wild.
Speaker 2:That's what check yeah it's going to eat the evidence.
Speaker 3:Why not during the eighties? Why wasn't it going mailbox to mailbox during, like the holiday season? You get checks because everybody sent money in the mail back then. Yeah, it wasn't yeah, nobody really sent checks or just cash.
Speaker 2:Look, nowadays people just go around Christmas, they just go door to door and they take the Amazon packages.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's another thing too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's for sure thing.
Speaker 3:It's the ring cameras, but I don't think they really catch anybody.
Speaker 1:That's what in those uh, those porch pirates. There was a news thing like those bloopers and one news lady was like there's porn pirates on the loose. You know what I mean. Where they mess up is pretty funny. Maybe think of that.
Speaker 3:Porn pirates, yeah, porn pirates, porch pirates, are they coming like a, like an old convertible?
Speaker 4:Jumping out.
Speaker 3:Funny.
Speaker 1:You know JB smooth is the. Uh yeah, he's on curvy enthusiasm, he's a comedian and stuff. Yeah, he was on SNL and he said he had a biddy wanted to do about a pirate with two eye patches. I just thought that was funny.
Speaker 2:Oh man, that's good. I'd like to see that bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it'd be funny.
Speaker 2:Hell yeah.
Speaker 3:It'd be hard to see it if you had two eye patches.
Speaker 1:I know, that's why it's funny.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Leona Ray Candy Stevens.
Speaker 3:And she was related to cat.
Speaker 2:Could be well. Manson and his wife made their way to New Mexico.
Speaker 3:Yes, and.
Speaker 2:They took a local prostitute with them. I did not, so this guy was. You can imagine a parole violation is likely forthcoming absolutely so in May of 1960 this is not but six months after he's released Manson is arrested in Laredo, Texas and was returned to Los Angeles and was ordered to serve his 10 year sentence. Now this is the one that had been suspended the previous year.
Speaker 2:Right, this is the one that when Leon Array came in and said look, suspend that sentence, I'll marry this guy, make him a changed man. Yeah, so he now had to serve that 10 year sentence because he violated his parole. Manson would then spend the next seven years in prison. Leon Array was granted a divorce in 1963. Now, it was during this time in prison where Manson learned the fine art of Hypnosis.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they said he was really into that and when he wasn't pretty like, he started to read a lot Like that's where he learned to play the guitar and everything too. When he had like all these these stints in prison there.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I had a fun fact on that too. I don't know if it was at this prison or what's prison you know, when he was in it would have been in.
Speaker 2:This was his second stint.
Speaker 1:Was it at McNeil Island penitentiary?
Speaker 2:if you have, you probably might. I'm guessing you have the same fun fact I do. Does it involve him being in prison at the same time with a famous person? No, okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, not yet.
Speaker 1:Well, it does. This guy's famous, but so I've heard two things on this Go, for there's a urban legend that he learned to play guitar when he was in prison. And there was a Guy in prison at this McNeil Island. His name was Alvin creepy Karpus.
Speaker 2:Yes, I read that too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he was one of four people ever to be named public enemy number one. Yep him, along with baby face Nelson, john Dillager and pretty boy Floyd and flavor Flav yeah, and flavor Flav, that's right, that's right. So he was supposedly in there at the same time as Carpus. Now this is in Carpus's biography. Later on that he wrote that this little, this little guy comes up to him hey, can you teach me guitar? And he's like, yeah, whatever, gives me the guitar. He actually picked it up pretty quick.
Speaker 3:He said he was pretty good and he could sing he was yeah, he actually like, if you listen, he does have albums out there. You can listen to the whole there's. There's actually a Netflix special, I think right that's like that has all his songs and stuff on his music.
Speaker 1:But yeah, yeah, this guy said, you know, he approached him in prison and and at that time this guy's in Prison for probably life at that time, or whatever for his crime. So he was by an older man by that time. But yeah, who knows?
Speaker 2:the likelihood of being paroled if you were public. Enemy number one is slim pretty slim, yeah, yeah boy.
Speaker 1:Hey guys, can you wrap it up, dang already.
Speaker 3:I know where does the time go. Definitely does that was pretty fun. There's a lot of stuff on this guy.
Speaker 1:It does when you consider, or a third of the way through, maybe if we're lucky, who's?
Speaker 2:do knows this guy's life just goes on and on. It's like onion with with so much, so many pedals to it right.
Speaker 3:What does um bro? When we said about the pros, I wasn't gonna say real quick, I backed off on.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm just throwing us in there, like all these stories that we talk about with these Guys such as Manson, there's always prostitutes involved. Yep, I don't really. I don't know any prostitutes hookas. Yeah, do you guys like in real, like we. I mean, we grew up in the 80s, 90s, but yeah, I don't, I don't like know any hookers. Apparently back then they were just everywhere hookers have come a long way.
Speaker 2:So there are still to this day I promise you there are just your standard what we would understand as being hookers, but now you have arguably legalized hooking, legalized prostitution, by virtue of Only fans. Yeah or the interweb, or yeah only fans in it in and of itself is legalized prostitution 100% yeah, because you're not.
Speaker 1:You're physically not touching them, but they're offering a product.
Speaker 2:You're real time buying someone to do whatever you want them to do to do something.
Speaker 3:But even growing up going to the school that we did like in the city, I remember like driving around the city I like I never saw like women of the night, oh state street.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I have you guys, absolutely I had.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean downtown, I mean not a lot.
Speaker 2:Not a that's what I'm saying was like but I've seen that yeah you'll see, hook is on State Street and you'll see them on verbac, but you ever know, oh verbac.
Speaker 3:Yeah, wow, the street that leads you to the Broad Street market, yeah, yeah, Because I lived on second and Boas for a while I never like really really late at night you might think like the girl might be a hooker right, yeah, but that's the thing you get.
Speaker 1:You go up. You know you got the wrong one, you just cuz. I dress this way.
Speaker 3:I miss. Are you a hooker? I got a sharp 20 in it for you. That's like what?
Speaker 1:that's a pal bit where you guys, the girls, like titties, are popping out of her turtleneck and he goes up to her and he's like, hey, baby, she's like, just cuz I'm dressed this way it doesn't mean he goes. Well, that'd be like me, dave Chappelle, dressing like a police officer, like walking around you come up, officer, officer, we need help. Excuse me, just cuz I'm dressed this way.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, right.
Speaker 1:You're gonna wear that outfit.
Speaker 2:He makes a very good point. Yeah, very good point.
Speaker 3:That's what. Yeah, I walked up to the one girl one time downtown. I was like is your name Emerson? She's like huh. I was like Emerson, great titties you got there.
Speaker 1:That's pretty good. That's a good one, yeah thank you, thank you guys. Feel free to use that you work out, you must be in the fitness.
Speaker 2:How long? Until I fitness yeah, wow.
Speaker 1:Manson is crazy. Yeah, this is a good one, man. Definitely a lot of research on this. We'll definitely be back you guys getting else for we wrap it up man.
Speaker 2:No, I don't. I don't need you know Mrs Dave coming down here and cracking that whip.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, you're enjoying that. Speaking of which, like we always tell you, leave that five-star rating. Tell a friend You're enjoying the show. That's how we're gonna grow is if you let everybody know you're enjoying it, and we'd appreciate it. Reach out on our social media Facebook, instagram. Send us a message. We got something wrong or we missed something? Let us know. We'll shout it out on the air and I guess that's it for now, so we'll catch you where on the flip side if we don't see you sooner, we'll see you later.
Speaker 2:Base.
Speaker 3:Thanks for hanging out in the old, dirty basement. If you dig our theme music, like we do check out the tsunami Experiment, find them on Facebook. Their music is available streaming on Spotify and Apple and where great music is available.
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