Charles Manson: From Disturbed Childhood to Infamous Cult Leader Part 3

Prepare yourself for a harrowing journey through the twisted world of Charles Manson, as we bring our three-part series to a dramatic close. We're peeling back the curtain on the dark legacy of the Manson Family, whose tale of murder and mayhem sent shockwaves through the nation. Our discussion meanders from the eerie birthday coincidence shared with a listener, to the bizarre intersection of Manson with the Beach Boys, and the blood-chilling Helter Skelter ideology. Along with riveting anecdotes, we navigate the maze of Manson's failed musical aspirations and the cold-blooded murder of Gary Hinman, painting a sinister portrait of this enigmatic figure.

The conversation takes an intense turn as we dissect the gruesome events that unfolded at Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski's home—a night of tragedy marked by a case of mistaken identity and cold calculation. Manson's chilling post-crime visit, the puzzling early steps by law enforcement, and Susan Atkins' fateful slip of the tongue that ultimately unraveled the case, are recounted with compelling detail. We traverse the bizarre landscape of dune buggy apocalypse prep and delve into the eerie messages linked to the Beatles' White Album, exposing a generational disconnect in the midst of chaos.

As the trial of Manson and his followers unfolds into a spectacle, we recount the courtroom circus that ensued, from Manson's unsettling self-representation to the fanatical devotion of his disciples. The trial's strange twists and the defense's unorthodox strategies are scrutinized, capturing the surreal nature of this chapter in criminal history. We're not just recounting history; we're exploring the complex persona of Charles Manson, right up to the insights shared by Danny Trejo from their time in prison together. Join us in the musty confines of the Ol' Dirty Basement for a finale that's as captivating as it is chilling.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Thanks for tuning in to the old dirty basement On this week's episode. We're wrapping up part three of Charles Manson.

Speaker 2: 0:06

Man, if two parts weren't enough already, we went through the early years, the middle years, the soon-to-be-later years. I wonder what could possibly happen next.

Speaker 4: 0:16

That's. I think that's why we're like tuning in to find out. Yeah, If you know anything about Manson, you might know some stuff, but I'm sure you don't know it all.

Speaker 1: 0:23

Yeah, we hope you're enjoying our coverage. Speaking of which, if you are, leave that five-star rating on Apple, you can leave a written review and sit back, relax and enjoy our coverage of part three, charles Manson.

Speaker 3: 0:42

This is the old, dirty basement Home to debauchery, madness, murder and mayhem. A tear-filled train ride deep into the depths of the Devil's Den.

Speaker 1: 0:57

With a little bit of humor history and copious consciousness.

Speaker 2: 1:02

I'm your announcer shallow throat.

Speaker 3: 1:05

Your hosts are Dave, Matt and Zap. I love you, Matthew McGunnay.

Speaker 4: 1:14

All right, all right, all right. Hey, this is Dave, Matt and Zap, and welcome to the old, dirty basement.

Speaker 1: 1:22

Where every week we cover a true crime murder or compelling story.

Speaker 4: 1:27

So sit back, relax and comprehend. Hello, my friends, hello and welcome back to the old dirty basement on this lovely almost spring. Is it almost spring Getting there? Almost spring day here in Pennsylvania, couple more weeks.

Speaker 1: 1:44

Almost time for Rita's.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Oh, yeah, ooh.

Speaker 1: 1:50

She's a saint.

Speaker 4: 1:51

That woman is a saint, she is. It is some good Italian ice, though. Yes, it is.

Speaker 1: 1:56

Is that regional or is that across the country?

Speaker 4: 1:59

I think Rita's is everywhere. Is it like a sheets or a wah-wah?

Speaker 1: 2:03

I don't know. We'll have to mail back that for us, please.

Speaker 4: 2:06

Yeah, if anybody's out there, that's a good mailbag start today, I like that yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:10

so what are we back with here today, fellas?

Speaker 2: 2:12

Back with the old Chuck Manson. Charles Manson, part three. Good old Chucky. As if two parts weren't enough, there's a lot to cover there is. This guy was dynamic. So what did we do here? Part one we covered his early life. Part two, our most recent we covered he. What did you do? Got out of prison, moved to San Francisco, ran into, started the Manson family, all thanks to LSD. And you know his probation.

Speaker 1: 2:41

Yes.

Speaker 4: 2:42

Do we know how many members at this time were in the Manson family?

Speaker 1: 2:44

We had like 20 followers, I think there was that time on the ranch there was 32 adults, something like that, and like seven children live in there. That was at, you know, near the end here.

Speaker 2: 2:55

It's a cult. Yeah, it's for sure a cult.

Speaker 4: 2:57

It's like a mini cult.

Speaker 2: 2:58

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:59

You know, you know? One other fun fact I found out.

Speaker 2: 3:01

Give it to me.

Speaker 1: 3:01

This is probably the best one of all. Guess who shares a birthday with Charles Manson, um, one of our listeners. Jw's no, not officer Vince Officer, vince. Yeah, I got the message from him Happy birthday.

Speaker 2: 3:17

Happy belated, very belated birthday, Officer Vince.

Speaker 4: 3:19

Yeah, officer, vince is what 30th probably? Okay, yeah, out there in.

Speaker 2: 3:23

Pittsburgh. So he started the Manson family, had his family moved out to oh, ran into one of the Beach Boys, mooched off of him for a long time, hung out with Neil Young, called Dennis Wilson, moved on to spawn ranch, got the craziness in his mind about Helter Skelter. Oh was started. His wanted to start the race war ahead of time. Again, thanks to the, the Helter Skelter the mantra, I guess discombobulation up in his head. Oh, started. Killed Gary Hinman, or did he kill him? He didn't kill him. But he led the family to kill him.

Speaker 2: 4:03

Anyway, with Busele Bobby.

Speaker 1: 4:07

Bobby.

Speaker 2: 4:07

Busele we ended with the devil Bobby Busele, that Vicki Balloncore was the devil. He was arrested after having fallen asleep in the car belonging to him, and the police found the murder weapon in the wheel, well, of the car.

Speaker 1: 4:21

Fun fact on that car it was a Fiat wagon. That was the, the car that belonged to Hinman, that Busele was driving. He was heading I forget if it was the San Diego or somewhere on like a longer trip San Diego and the Fiat's not a reliable car, I guess and so it broke down, of course. So he was on the side of the road and the police approached him like, and when they ran the tags, fiat, fix it again Tony, fix it again Tony. Is that what that is? Yeah, kind of like Ford and have other ones like sound over his idea.

Speaker 1: 4:48

So they pulled over, ran the tags, whatever, and there is an you know an APB outstolen vehicle or you know that it was tied to that murder. They asked him about it. He said, oh, I bought it off a black guy because they were trying to frame that murder. Gary Heman murder. You know, on this race war, correct To start this race war? I should say, yep, you know, obviously didn't buy this story, not to mention he had fingerprints at the scene. So there was all that. The other car involved in that Henneman murder was a VW bus, I found out, and that VW bus Manson then turned over to. There was a motorcycle gang called the straight Satan's Nice and that's what. That's what spawned this whole murder.

Speaker 2: 5:30

Not the gay Satan's, but the straight Straight, things. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 5:33

This Henneman had sold a bad batch of mescaline. Oh, and they, they, they wanted their money back, which was a thousand dollars. That's where it all came from. Just to give you a little backstory on that.

Speaker 4: 5:44

The old mescaline market back in the sixties.

Speaker 1: 5:47

Yeah, I guess it was a bad batch Thousand dollars. So he gave him the VW bus, which was well over the value Sure Manson did so and that what Hunter S Thompson was on a lot Mescaline, a lot of mescaline.

Speaker 2: 5:58

Was it mescaline or was it? I think it was mescaline.

Speaker 4: 6:01

No, I'm fear and loathing.

Speaker 2: 6:03

I just watched, like not too long I remember he did a lot of those, those speed balls. He did uh ether.

Speaker 4: 6:09

Yeah, ether was one.

Speaker 2: 6:10

He was a big inhalant, he liked ether and he liked poppers.

Speaker 1: 6:13

Like.

Speaker 2: 6:13

Whippets and stuff. Yeah, like that.

Speaker 1: 6:17

He was high, a lot. He was high a lot.

Speaker 2: 6:19

So were these people. Indeed, it's fortunate, I guess, for um, for for Manson to have that VW bus so readily available, because his chance would have it. I think he got at some point into the the theft of VWs, but maybe we'll get there. Yeah, maybe we'll get there. I know, I think you know we were going with that.

Speaker 2: 6:40

Yeah Well, gary Hinman was not enough to get that race war going. It's. It's really time to move on here. We need bigger and better things. And now onto what is likely the most famous or infamous part of the Manson family's legacy the Tate and lobby on comers. So Manson had been stalking the ground of Terry Melchers residence for a number of months, randomly showing up uninvited or going completely unseen. The location included a main house and a guest house. Melcher and his girlfriend Candice Bergen from the Murphy Brown.

Speaker 1: 7:13

There you go. Oh wow, I didn't remember that downtown Brown.

Speaker 2: 7:16

They were renting the main house at the time and on the night of August 8th 1969, four members of the Manson family Tex Watson, linda Cossabian, susan Atkins and Patricia Crenwinkel arrived at Melcher's residence with one objective kill everyone. After cutting the telephone line to the house, the four made their way into the property, first discovered or encountered by Steve parent, a friend of the properties caretaker William Garrison.

Speaker 4: 7:49

Yeah, that guy was just at the wrong place at the wrong Right yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:52

This guy's just hanging around outside, what? Yeah, he's just hanging out in his car Like he's. He was either leaving or showing up Like he was just there.

Speaker 1: 7:59

I think he was leaving this guy parents like 18 years old. He had called him about a clock radio, of all things. He was trying to sell this clock radio. He's like hey, do you interested in taking a look at it? He takes it over. That is this. You know, this guest house plugs it in, he's showing it. Look how good it works and all that. He's like, yeah, I'm not interested, but whatever he's like here, have a beer before you leave and had a beer. And then he was on his way.

Speaker 2: 8:23

Well, when he's leaving down the driveway, who does he see walking up the right, those four cats?

Speaker 1: 8:28

Right. So he was like, oh, he was just an 18 year old kid on his way out in a white Ramler.

Speaker 2: 8:32

It was well in his white Ramler. This poor bastard parent was shot four times in the chest and abdomen by Tex Watson. Watson, atkins and Crenowinkle entered the house, while Cassabian kept watch at the gate. Once inside, four occupants were discovered and brought into the living room. They were Sharon Tate, who at the time was eight and a half months pregnant and was the wife of Roman Polanski. It was Jay Sebring, tate's friend and former boyfriend, by the way. Wojciech Frikowski, who was Polanski's friend, and Abigail Folger, frikowski's girlfriend and, as chance would have it, heiress to the Folger's coffee family legacy. That's big money.

Speaker 2: 9:22

Sebring and Tate were tied together at their necks. The other end of the rope was thrown over an exposed ceiling beam. Sebring was then shot and stabbed seven times dead at the hands of Tex Watson. Frikowski's hands had been tied with the towel, but he managed to free himself and attempted to escape. Susan Atkins stabbed him in the legs, but he managed to press on. Tex Watson pursued him onto the lawn where he was shot twice, beaten over the head with the gun and stabbed multiple times. In the end, frikowski was stabbed a total of 51 times and hit over the head with the gun 13 times. In fact, this dude was beaten so hard that the barrel of the gun had bent and one of the side grips had broken off. Can you believe it? Pretty brutal, that's pretty brutal.

Speaker 2: 10:19

Folger escaped out of bedroom window but was chased down by Crenwinklin Watson. She was stabbed to death a total of 28 times. Tate was the last one, pleading for her life and the life of her unborn baby. She was stabbed 16 times. Tate and Sebring's bodies were then hung. Tate was still alive at the time, though just barely. In a fashion similar to the Hinman murder. Atkins used Tate's blood to write pig on the front door of the house he has. Where was the groundskeeper, bill Garretson? He?

Speaker 1: 10:57

was sleeping.

Speaker 4: 10:57

Yeah, let's me in the guest home.

Speaker 1: 10:59

That comes up later than in the investigation. How did this guy sleep through all that? Yeah?

Speaker 4: 11:04

I mean, I don't think he was sleeping, I think he was like hiding in his room. Would you really be wanting to like come out?

Speaker 1: 11:10

Maybe, yeah, I mean, I guess there's no way to tell he was the only one there Like think if you're hearing like, like gunshots, people screaming, whatever you're, you're going to stay hidden wherever.

Speaker 2: 11:20

Yeah, I gotta assume this guy didn't have a gun. I could tell you, if I did not have a gun, I'm sure I'd be hiding it if the other guy has a gun.

Speaker 4: 11:27

But even if you heard gunshots like, your first instinct is survival, so you would probably hide right, but back to the beginning of this when we started talking about it.

Speaker 1: 11:36

So like, like you had mentioned, it was before that the property of Terry Melcher and Candice Bergen correct, they had ended up moving away Roman Polanski and Sharon Tain were renting it. Do you want to guess what the rent was back then?

Speaker 2: 11:49

so not. So I can tell you that neither. What's his name? Who moved away?

Speaker 4: 11:56

Merch, merch, terry Melcher, melcher.

Speaker 2: 11:58

He didn't own the house.

Speaker 1: 11:59

No no.

Speaker 2: 12:01

Yeah, he too was a rent. He was renting it, but I forget the dude's name, some it's it some Italian last name that he owned the whole property in. This Italian dude Lived in the guest house and he rented out the main house to varying people of varying levels of stardom, including but limited to yeah. The Polanski and Melcher before him. What was the rent on that?

Speaker 1: 12:18

1200 a month. Goddamn, this is in 1969 or whatever. So just to give you an idea of the property values.

Speaker 4: 12:24

Well, it's still like that in LA, like people can't afford to pretty much buy a home there. So they do, they rent like it's like a car thing. They like lease a home and then when they're done with it for two years, they move somewhere else.

Speaker 2: 12:35

It's amazing, in LA there's no such thing as a middle class.

Speaker 1: 12:39

No, it's expensive.

Speaker 2: 12:40

You're either in or you're broke.

Speaker 1: 12:42

There's no middle and the other thing was Charlie had, like you said, he'd been there on numerous occasions dropping Terry Melcher off. But he actually went there one day and the owner it was Sharon Tate was there. I forget one of her friends was there, it might have been Sebring or somebody else and confronted him like can we help you? He's a gone looking for Terry Melcher. Well, he doesn't live here anymore.

Speaker 1: 13:04

So, charlie, by that point yeah he should have been aware that, like, they don't live here anymore, right so. But I guess he figured there's some celebrities. Well, he knew Sharon Tate was there, but he knew Terry wasn't there. But he, he couldn't get a hold of Terry's address, right, he would ask Dennis Wilson. He asked you know, the owner of that house, who was in the guest house at that time, and he was like I don't know where he moved, right, like nobody would tell him where Melcher was.

Speaker 2: 13:28

Yeah, the owner actually had said look, I don't know where he is, but I know he's gonna be gone for like a year, dude, so he's gonna be going get the hell out of here.

Speaker 4: 13:35

Oh yeah, this is what I wanted to touch on was Roman Polanski at the time was pretty much like a Steven Spielberg, like everybody knew yep, who he was, and he just had a film that was related to the occult. Does anybody know what that film was?

Speaker 1: 13:47

Rosemary's baby, exactly, so it was very.

Speaker 4: 13:50

It was very like occulted and there was a lot of like.

Speaker 1: 13:53

Backlash and stuff people probably trying to connect that to the yeah, yeah so that happened after.

Speaker 4: 13:58

After the murders, a lot of people were saying that Polanski maybe was not involved with it, but had something to do with it.

Speaker 1: 14:03

Yeah, they were thinking he was maybe guilty, but this Guaransan.

Speaker 2: 14:06

He's had. He was guilty of other stuff for sure.

Speaker 1: 14:09

But this Guaransan was getting paid like $35 a week to stay there and watch the property when the owner was away, but Sharon Tate would always have people over anyhow, so there was always people there. That's why on the night of this, there was all these people there. Yeah, she was like there was never alone parties all the time. Yeah, Pulaski like Eddie. Murphy.

Speaker 4: 14:28

Yeah, right, pretty much party all the time. It's funny when you say Sharon, like I was reading that was like oh, sharon Tate. I thought he played for, like the Falcons.

Speaker 1: 14:37

Yeah right.

Speaker 4: 14:39

From the University of Pittsburgh, sharon Tate.

Speaker 1: 14:42

Yeah, but Polanski was always in England, or? Italy or here or there like doing like Filming movies and production and stuff like that. So she was alone a lot most of the time and she always had friends over that. One guy Like you said they were that sea bring. I guess they were romantically involved, yeah, at one point, yep, but he was like a hairstylist or whatever. Yep and they were just friends now. Yeah, you know, but it was weird that they targeted that house, since Melcher wasn't there and Charlie didn't know that.

Speaker 2: 15:10

But I guess, maybe I Think for Charles it was more of a I'm. I'm now so familiar with this place Just because I've been scoping it out, and I also know that it's off the beaten path, which it is. It's up the side of a mountain. If you ever look at where this place is located, it's up the side of a mountain, it's at the end of a one.

Speaker 4: 15:28

There's no through traffic right, one lane high or not highway, one lane driveway.

Speaker 2: 15:33

It's just simple and straight and at the end of it, is this, this glorious house in there, and was these people again a place with which he was familiar, just because he was trying to scope out Terry Melcher and I? I did we ever conclude as to why he was trying to get to Terry Melcher? Because he distanced his music?

Speaker 4: 15:50

Yeah he said yeah, he's like I. I think it is not gonna work, and then he was pissed, anything you know.

Speaker 1: 15:55

He's like I'm supposed to be recording artist and my works amazing he came out to the ranch to hear him perform and he was like I can't really do anything with you, but I have a guy that does like Indian tribal music that would maybe Do, could do something with, with your style of music and I introduce you.

Speaker 4: 16:13

So he kind of didn't leave him Totally kind of kind of help him or trying to help him out.

Speaker 1: 16:18

He felt he felt bad for all the people there on this ranch because they he was telling him how they're living out of Dumpsters as Terry Melcher felt bad for him. So he gave him what he had in his pocket, which was like 50 bucks. He was like here, take this money, feed these people or whatever, and I'll get back to you. But he didn't never really shut him out, he just kind of said like I like what you're doing, I just don't know what I would do with what you're doing. So he felt spited by Melcher.

Speaker 1: 16:39

Which would give him motive to go after Melcher.

Speaker 2: 16:42

Sure, this is Melcher, who he'd met at Dennis Wilson's house.

Speaker 1: 16:45

Yeah, because Melcher is the Music producer for the birds and all he's in the music industry and all those guys network together and Dennis Wilson is the one that kind of brought this in the Lime late there. Yeah, that hey like check this guy Charlie out and blah, blah, blah. Oh yeah, also back to that when they wrote pig on the door. Yeah, she used the towel to get Tate's blood. The White pig on the door right, it's not.

Speaker 2: 17:09

She'd like cut her head off or her hand off.

Speaker 1: 17:11

Well, not even that, but just to avoid. Like fingerprints they were very, very Conscious of like. Let's not leave any evidence here, you know, because that first murder they messed up. Yeah, we had fingerprints all over the place.

Speaker 2: 17:24

It's still, it's still. I mean this one, just in whole as a whole, is messed up. I mean, look, four people call it four and a half because I mean you got an eight and a half month baby in the belly of Churante sure huh.

Speaker 1: 17:37

Do you know what a text said to them when they the first the line that he used?

Speaker 2: 17:41

I do. It was on the devil and I'm here To do. That was work.

Speaker 1: 17:44

Yeah, as he kicked the first guy in the head and he was. I mean, it was like I heard, like it was basically like I verbatim I don't know if it was Cassi B and or one of the Manson girls that was had to, their only ones that are there that are alive, maybe Watson, I don't know, it could have been but basically, given a play by play of what was said and it was horrible. Yeah, I mean it was really like a violin was the one that ratted everything out, wouldn't she?

Speaker 1: 18:07

well they all once they got in the you know testimonies and stuff started giving stuff up, but um, definitely was like Pretty graphic everything that went on in there.

Speaker 4: 18:17

Shit yeah. And to be clear, Charles Manson was not here at all. Correct at not at all.

Speaker 2: 18:24

No, it was not here was not at the scene, not even close.

Speaker 1: 18:27

No, he was there later though. Yeah, but you know, later that night he was was he?

Speaker 2: 18:32

oh, yes, he was. He went to inspect what went down. Yes, yeah that's.

Speaker 4: 18:35

That's not committing anything.

Speaker 1: 18:36

Well, no, but you're aware of a crime.

Speaker 4: 18:39

I think they were all pretty high also to be like stabbing people 51.

Speaker 2: 18:42

He was getting high. Yeah, you know how we do, they were all in some shit. So, yeah, in fact that night he came back, or came back, he went there, I inspected it and he was none too satisfied.

Speaker 1: 18:54

No, he made it even a little bit more Witchy as he said, witchy. Yeah, but they also got $70 out of that. No, that's all the money they got out of that because he had a tech said that's weeks worth of ground keeper willy's pocket money.

Speaker 2: 19:06

It is, but ground keeper was still alive.

Speaker 1: 19:08

He was, but he said the Sharon and Folgers there. He's like where's the money? I know you got money here and this is all they had was 70 bucks, but we can get more. They were trying to stall. They give us time, we'll give you more. We'll get you more. It didn't work.

Speaker 2: 19:21

It did not work. All occupants killed. Fun fact Steve McQueen was supposed to be at that party. He didn't make it.

Speaker 4: 19:30

I think if Steve McQueen was there, it would be a different story. Yeah, there was a.

Speaker 1: 19:34

That's funny. You brought that up because I had a list of these. Now these are all people later on that they they were supposed to be there Quincy Jones, steve McQueen, like you said. Lou Glossett Jr yeah, patty Duke, who supposedly says she had strep throat. Rick James he was hungover. And Sammy Davis Jr Now, the McQueen Excuse was a girl. I guess called him makes sense like a late-night booty call me that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 19:59

Steve McQueen is the man's man. Yeah he's a man's man's man, mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: 20:02

Yeah, it would have been a different story if McQueen was there now Rick James. He could even turn it around because them girls are all high. He was like come on, bitches.

Speaker 2: 20:11

So there's what you would have got when I heard mention of of Quincy Jones. That would have thrown the whole thing off Quincy Jones, rick James and Sammy Davis Jr. So this was made to look like again they're starting a race war yes so they're making it look like a black guy or black people, stabbed all of these wealthy white people or killed all these wealthy white people. That wouldn't work if the dead people include black people.

Speaker 1: 20:36

Yeah, lay in there, fuck your couch.

Speaker 2: 20:38

Fuck. Your couch is right. So it was, I should say it's very serendipitous for not only the people who remain alive because they weren't there, but it's serendipitous for Charles and his family's sake, for purposes of their narrative, that there were in fact we're no black people there. Yeah it would have just thrown off their whole purpose.

Speaker 4: 20:55

Exactly yeah not, not for anything here or not for not, but I don't think Rick James would be coming to this party. There's like four people there like hanging it out.

Speaker 1: 21:04

I don't know this is all like, who knows, he just comes to fuck the couch right, but I'm saying Rick, rick wouldn't have been at that party. No, it's not happening. That's not. That's not one of his his Jones.

Speaker 2: 21:15

Well displeased with the outcome of the previous night's murders, manson himself accompanied the four perpetrators, along with two additional members of the family, leslie van houten and Clem Grogan, to the house of lino and rosemary lobby onka the very next night is Leslie related to millhouse? So obviously the name van houten for millhouse van houten had to come from from these murders, that's from these bad people had to, I mean.

Speaker 4: 21:48

Yeah, that's the only other name I know of van.

Speaker 1: 21:52

This neighbor to that they targeted this next night wasn't as wealthy right it was kind of a surprise that they went there, but super like middle of the road type. Yeah, cuz they were because the first one they were targeting like a list, you know where stars live, like real, high in real estate. Like zap said, la is expensive wherever you're at. Yeah, this is more along the lines of a, I guess for LA, maybe a middle class.

Speaker 2: 22:14

Yeah, this would be a house in the valley, not up on the hills right.

Speaker 2: 22:18

Well, that very next day, august 9th 1969, manson and Watson entered through the unlocked back door of the lobby onka house. Lino, who was sleeping on the couch in the living room, was awakened by Manson and Watson, who tied his hands. Watson then got Rosemary out of bed and brought her to the living room. Pillow cases were placed over Lino and Rosemary's heads and were tied with lamp cords, with the lamps still attached at the end of those electrical cords. It happens, it happens.

Speaker 2: 22:54

Crenwinkle and Van Houten were sent to the house by Manson, who left the scene with the remaining three family members. Crenwinkle and Van Houten then took Rosemary to the bedroom, while Lino was left with Watson in the living room. Watson began his attack on Lino by stabbing him, but was disrupted by a scuffle coming from the bedroom. In that bedroom, rosemary was trying to keep Crenwinkle and Van Houten away from her by blindly swinging the lamp that was at the end of the electrical cord tied around her neck. Watson put a quick end to Rosemary's efforts, stabbing her close to a dozen times. Watson then returned to the living room, continued to stab and ultimately kill Lino and carved the word war on his abdomen.

Speaker 1: 23:41

Good God y'all.

Speaker 2: 23:45

Nice Dave out of nowhere. Meanwhile, back in the bedroom, crenwinkle and Van Houten were taking turns at stabbing. Rosemary had already died from Texas stabs. Crenwinkle and Van Houten were stabbing a lifeless body by now. It was a total of 41 stabs. Van Houten would later claim 16 of those were hers. Using Rosemary's blood, crenwinkle wrote Helter Skelter on the refrigerator door and Rise and Death to Pigs on the walls. While he lay dead, crenwinkle stabbed Lino in the throat with a steak knife, leaving the steak knife embedded in his throat, and went on to stab him 14 more times with a carving fork, leaving the fork sticking out of his stomach. Watson, crenwinkle and Van Houten were left to hitchhike home to Spawn. Ranch Manson, in the meantime had driven the remaining three chicks to the home of Saladin Nadir, dropping them off with instructions to murder him.

Speaker 1: 24:47

Was that the actor? Yes, okay.

Speaker 2: 24:50

The plan fell through, however, as Linda Cassabian had knocked on the wrong door, awakening a neighbor Like Watson, crenwinkle and Van Houten, cassabian, atkins and Clem were left to hitchhike home to Spawn Ranch.

Speaker 1: 25:05

Yeah, I know that actor, like one of them, hadn't known the guy and hooked up with him, so that's why they targeted him.

Speaker 2: 25:10

Like in a sexy way.

Speaker 1: 25:12

Yeah, and the girls there it slept with him or whatever, had relations with him so they knew where he was at, if he was in that apartment complex I think it was and I know that they had stole. When they left the crime scene they had taken the wallet or the purse and their idea was to drop it into a black neighborhood so that it would end up in the hands of somebody would go use the credit cards and they would be like, oh, they're trying to frame that race war again.

Speaker 1: 25:39

So they decided against it and instead went to like a gas station in a black neighborhood and put it in. They went into the girls bathroom and put it in the tank of the, oh, the back of yeah, yeah, the back of the tank, the toilet tank, yeah yeah, so that'll come back to. They. Get them later on. Huh, it's interesting.

Speaker 4: 25:57

What's that called when you like shit in the back end of the toilet tank? It's called an upper decker.

Speaker 1: 26:01

Upper decker. An upper decker, yeah, yeah, that's a good one.

Speaker 2: 26:04

Best used with diarrhea's. Nah is a heart, an indigestion upset stomach for decker Overdecker. Yes, so where we at now the body count, by the way, is now at a total of eight, that's Gary Hinman, steve parent, Sharon Tate, j C bring, abigail Folger, woowieck Frickoski, leno LaBianca and Rosemary LaBianca. Oh yeah, that's real messed up. All right, let's move on. Remember, gentlemen, the word of the day is Bishop.

Speaker 4: 26:39

Bishop Juice.

Speaker 2: 26:41

Yeah, word of the day is Bishop. Well, the LA sheriff was working on the Hinman case. Lapd began working on the Tate case. Glaring similarities were noted. William Garrison again that was the groundskeeper at the Polanski House was questioned and released as we discussed. He apparently slept through the whole thing.

Speaker 1: 27:01

Do you know, though, they did arrest him initially. Of course, they were like he had to done it.

Speaker 2: 27:05

He's the one living dude there at the scene.

Speaker 1: 27:07

They were like there's no way that you could have slept through this, or not, Like you're a hundred yards away and there's, like all this, mayhem going on, mayhem, nothing but mayhem LA's finest. Yeah right.

Speaker 2: 27:19

By August 12th the LAPD was working the LaBianca murders. Initially police had concluded there was no connection between the Tate and LaBianca murders. Coincidentally, the Spawn Ranch was raided on August 16th. Apparently, manson and his family were suspected of a ring of car thefts. They were released not but a few days later thanks to a mistyped search warrant.

Speaker 1: 27:47

They weren't even connecting any of that Not at all they were probably shitting their pants when they showed up.

Speaker 2: 27:51

It was correct. The cops showed up and these guys are all thinking, holy shit, they're taking us to jail for murder. No, but we are gonna investigate what we think is a ring of car thieves. This was oh we talked about I alluded to this earlier foreshadowed, as it were.

Speaker 1: 28:06

Yes.

Speaker 2: 28:07

They were taking bugs BW bugs and converting them into dune bugs.

Speaker 1: 28:10

Dune bugs. Yeah, that was their thing for the apocalypse.

Speaker 4: 28:13

The apocalypse. That sounds fun, though the apocalypse.

Speaker 2: 28:15

That was so they could make their way into the city underground that only Charlie knew the location of.

Speaker 1: 28:19

Yeah, these idiots. They were taking us when they were putting together. There's a saloon on that Spawn Ranch that was like part of the movie sets and they started building this thing in the saloon, not thinking how the hell are we gonna get it out of here? What the buggy? Yeah, this buggy there. It is like dune buggy. So they had it all put together and couldn't.

Speaker 2: 28:35

You can't just drive it out the front door.

Speaker 1: 28:37

Oh, oops, but they would make these dune buggy. He was gonna use them for this end of the world when they're out in the desert, and all that shit which we'll get to.

Speaker 4: 28:44

They came up with that shit before, like Mad Max.

Speaker 1: 28:47

Yeah, basically.

Speaker 4: 28:47

Yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 1: 28:48

Remember that Mad.

Speaker 2: 28:49

Manson, the whole idea was there's gonna be a big race war and everybody's gonna kill themselves and there's just gonna be this vast wasteland with nothing else left and we're gonna have to run it.

Speaker 1: 28:58

Right.

Speaker 2: 28:59

Hmm, okay. Well, the car theft racket wouldn't go away. Manson and his family were arrested yet again within the following weeks for car theft. This time, however, this was at neighboring ranches, and this was the Myers and Barker ranches. The Dominoes began to fall when Susan Atkins just couldn't keep her mouth shut. Susan mentioned her involvement in the Hinman case to a roommate of hers, who went on to tell the police. Upon being booked, atkins admitted it to the LA Sheriffs and then, while in jail, she again regaled her two cellmates of her involvement in the Tate and Lobby Oncomerters. Shocker, these two cellmates told the police Again. The word of the day is bishop. Somebody needs to shut that bishop.

Speaker 4: 29:50

Yeah, right, yeah, you're welcome.

Speaker 2: 29:53

You're welcome, right? So yeah, this woman just would not shut up. It was just telling the whole story over and, over and over.

Speaker 4: 29:59

That's what I say, like if you're gonna do a murder or a crime, there should never be more than two people. Yeah, cause people talk and you have to eliminate the one who you did it with.

Speaker 2: 30:07

Well, a secret's no longer a secret once there's a second person.

Speaker 4: 30:11

Right.

Speaker 2: 30:12

September 1st the gun used on parent Sebring and Freikowski was discovered near the scene by a 10 year old neighbor kid. Lapd received it and they filed it in an evidence locker. Months later, on December 13th, the LA Times published Atkins' gruesome story. It took the neighbor's kid's father to call the LAPD and insist they go find the gun that they had locked away in the evidence and connected the two murders. Fun fact, a connection between the Beatles' white album and the bloody messages at the three crime scenes had been discovered by the LAPD by the end of August, but to them it was just a coincidence.

Speaker 1: 30:54

You wouldn't think like that helter-skelter. As soon as you see that, you'd be like, oh, it's from the album, somebody's gonna be like well, when the hell else am I hearing the term helter-skelter?

Speaker 4: 31:02

They may not have listened to music, Cause, you know, back then there was like there was like old cops, like they had, like the pudgy bellies Used to eat a lot of donuts.

Speaker 1: 31:09

Drink coffee, You're right, they weren't hip Like listen to that you mean.

Speaker 4: 31:13

Yeah, it was like look here, Shane. Yeah, I'm sorry, yeah, I'm guilty, shane.

Speaker 1: 31:18

Like the 40s or something.

Speaker 4: 31:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:20

Like yeah, I'm surprised with that helter-skelter. It's not like a normal. That's why I asked you if that meant anything. Before it was a song by the Beatles, If those words meant anything.

Speaker 2: 31:31

To my I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I find that on myself. I love the English language but, I, don't know where helter-skelter might have come from prior to the Beatles use of it, using it in that song. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 31:41

I think it just rhymed nicely Like helter-skelter.

Speaker 1: 31:43

True, and it means something totally different now Also think that there's a mis at least in my mind. I always thought that was written at the Sharon Tate murder scene. The helter-skelter, just in my head.

Speaker 4: 31:53

You didn't know it was related to a Beatles.

Speaker 1: 31:55

Well, no, I knew that part of it. I just always in my mind pictured that being written in blood at the CELO Drive address on the. But it actually was the next night at the second murder. This was one of those things where in my mind, I connected it like that I mean, it's all starting to fall already.

Speaker 2: 32:11

So you've already got Atkins in jail and she's just singing like a canary, like she's taking pride in this right. So after all of this goes down, and after they hear her whole story and the hell, even the news people hear the story and publish it in the goddamn newspaper. Then the arrests start to happen. First on the list was Charles Manson Ah, his chance would have it. He was already in custody in LA for those car thefts. Susan Atkins that's right, she's already in custody. She's the one singing. Tex Watkins oh, that's chance would have it. He's already in custody in Texas for those car thefts. Look one more time, everybody. If you're gonna commit a crime, just do one at a time, at a time.

Speaker 1: 32:48

He actually did fled, flee the scene, the Texas, and they had a hard time getting him back for extradition, I guess, would you call it Tex Watson.

Speaker 4: 32:56

Yeah, that's a call that extradition, even in the state like it's state to state.

Speaker 1: 32:59

But Texas was like really giving him a hard time with bringing him to LA, like there's so much paperwork and bullshit they had to go through. But he figured as soon, as soon as the murders were done and he was out of there. Like back then in the 60s, you can kind of disappear.

Speaker 2: 33:14

God yeah you know, I mean the different state when you've got nothing to lose and nothing to your name, you can do whatever the hell you want.

Speaker 4: 33:19

Wait, what was Tex Watson's real first name? Charles no, no was it Charles. I don't know, was it nipple?

Speaker 2: 33:27

What was his first name?

Speaker 4: 33:29

It was his parents are like. You're from Texas. Your name's Tex. I knew he had a first name. I couldn't think of it just a nickname, all right.

Speaker 1: 33:35

I'm pretty sure his first name was Charles. Awesome To Charles.

Speaker 2: 33:38

Well, two, charles, don't make a right.

Speaker 2: 33:40

That's right, oh, and it did. Okay. So we got Charles, Susan Tex, patricia Crenwingle she was already in custody in Alabama for the car thefts Leslie Van Houten was arrested in LA and Linda Kassabian actually gave herself up in New Hampshire on December 2nd after an arrest warrant was issued on December 1st. Let's see what else they got. So they got one, they got six, they got six people in custody. In so far as evidence They've got the gun that was found by the ten year old that again his dad, his dad had to call the cops, call the cops and like begging plea, like the. The whole exchange that he had back and forth with the cops was like and I could see it from both sides like the cops are here in the sky at the other end saying and the line Saying dude, do your jobs, police right.

Speaker 2: 34:28

Yeah, nobody. Nobody is gonna respond Kindly to that and in the meantime, the police are just getting angry more and more by this guy telling them how to do their jobs, so they're just like fuck off. It actually dissuades them from want to do anything with that gun. Anyway, they had the gun. They had a, a bloody knife claimed by Susan Atkins to be hers, which was located on a chair at I should say was found On a chair at the Tate House.

Speaker 1: 34:54

Yeah, she forgot it there. Yeah yeah, on the car right home she was like I've left a knife there.

Speaker 2: 34:59

Oh, oops, that's mine. Yeah, that's my knife officer, that you have an evidence. Okay, they had found Watson's and Cassabian's bloody foot I'm sorry, bloody fingerprints, which were lifted from the Tate House. Watson's fingerprints were on the gun, the the. They had also, in exchange for a full immunity, a full, detailed testimony from Linda Cassabian herself, and they had Paul Watkins testimony. So Paul Watkins was Not to be confused with Tex Watson. Paul Watkins was just another Manson family member. So they got to get. They got one of the girls singing Linda, I'm sorry, they got Atkins just running her mouth. They got Cassabian corroborating her entire story in exchange for immunity. And then you got Paul Watkins, just another member of the family.

Speaker 1: 35:49

Yeah, that Cassabian. That night when they went they were not aware that any of that was gonna go on. They did a thing called creepy crawling. Did you come across any them talking about that?

Speaker 2: 35:58

I saw it, but I didn't dig too deeply into it.

Speaker 1: 36:00

So basically they before this the murdering started they would go out to Wealthy homes, go in, move furniture around, do weird shit, just to fuck with people like, oh, when they wake up They'll be like freaked out, like who was in our house. Sometimes they would steal shit because they're trying to get money, but a lot of it was just to like make people on edge.

Speaker 4: 36:17

So I'm trying to go to that earlier, like with the people. Now these days, like the influencers or whatever, staying people's houses, what's that called?

Speaker 1: 36:23

Well, that's a frog frog. But this would actually be something they would just do overnight, in the middle of the night, go into a house, move furniture around and then leave. And then the people would wake up next day like what the hell?

Speaker 4: 36:33

Today's world. You can't do that. You'd be shot. No, you shot.

Speaker 1: 36:36

So they call that creepy crawling and they thought this night that's what they were going to do.

Speaker 2: 36:40

They had no idea. Instead, they were going to murder the murder.

Speaker 1: 36:43

So when they got to the house and you know, shot the kid in the driveway, this Cassabian freaked out. She was like oh, right. She had no idea, so she was on.

Speaker 2: 36:51

Yeah, she was just look out down at the gate and she was like make it stop.

Speaker 1: 36:55

You know, she wanted nothing really to do with it once it started, but she was stuck you know, yeah, look, when you're there with a group of murderers, it's tough.

Speaker 2: 37:03

What are you gonna do?

Speaker 1: 37:03

run away, because they're just gonna kill you they also said that the Acoustics of that area was when you would shoot a gun. You couldn't tell where it was coming from. People heard the gunshot but couldn't place where it was. He actually called it. There was a security detail that was in that neighborhood. Their job was just to sit around keep an eye on shit. They heard the gunshot, called the police. Hey, there's gunshots out here. This is a courting. That audio book I was listening to it was like well, I hope nobody died. Well, we'll check it out. They never said, they never sent anybody out to check damn.

Speaker 4: 37:35

So, like you said, in the Hollywood Hills, I guess, like just you couldn't tell where the echo was coming, that's exactly what it was, the echo was, so it would bounce around all over the yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:45

Like that doesn't happen up there.

Speaker 1: 37:46

No, I mean it's not. You would think you're out in the Hollywood Hills and he's honey coyote.

Speaker 4: 37:51

It's a classy joint up there.

Speaker 1: 37:53

The other thing is is that they were very disappointed to find out when it hit the news over the next few days there was no talk of race war, there's no talk of Black Panthers. There was no talk any of that. So it was kind of like they expected it to go one way. It didn't go any way.

Speaker 2: 38:09

That way exactly. It was just. Hey, here's some dead famous people. Because they're more focused on the dead famous people than they are on the whatever's another, Sorry good.

Speaker 1: 38:17

No, I just said, the evidence is just too stacked against them now another interesting fact I heard was so security dogs at the time are going for like $200 After the second murder the first murder, people were kind of like God's a celebrity, who cares, it's a star, you know, whatever the. The Biancas were more like normal people, sure. All of a sudden they said like security dogs, like you're probably your German shepherds, dogs like that were selling for like 1500 bucks. Dang gun, gun sales went up, all that stuff. So this had a profound effect on people profound.

Speaker 2: 38:48

Well, the trial was for the Tate and La Bianca murders. At this point it did not involve the Hinman murder. Manson initially served as his own attorney, but of course that was ended prior to testimony beginning.

Speaker 4: 39:02

Why do all crazy cats always want to like, like I like? No prior training. They got nothing to like. Oh man, I got this.

Speaker 2: 39:09

Squashed it like. Squashed it like, dude. You're a menace to yourself.

Speaker 4: 39:13

Stop, just stop like look man, I got. No, no, just listen, hear me out. Yeah, bundy did that. Yeah, he was kind of smart though right. I mean not to say that Manson was. I mean, I don't, I don't know what is. Yeah, he was.

Speaker 1: 39:25

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:26

He was no attorney.

Speaker 4: 39:27

He was no attorney.

Speaker 2: 39:29

So on the first day of testimony, manson arrived with an X on his forehead claiming he'd exed himself from society. Within days, atkins, crenwinkel and then Houghton did the same. Of course it was a circus. The outside was nuts. The outside of the courthouse was crazy. Members of the Manson family actually held Vigils outside during the trial, like they're just camping out on the sidewalk. Also along the lines with that Manson family there was a witness intimidation. Strangely, paul Watkins van caught on fire while he was in it.

Speaker 1: 40:05

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: 40:05

Yeah, again, paul Watkins, one of the guys testifying right against the family because Manson still has power, even behind bars somehow some way he's that's. Hypnosis goes a long way. Oh, this is like a straight out of just a comedy scene. The judge was assaulted in court. In court, manson attempted to attack the judge during the trial, and it was actually after that the judge began carrying a revolver every day to Court.

Speaker 4: 40:31

Now that's no joke. I mean I seen some things on on like court TV or whatever, where the where some guys getting convicted and he jumps over the sure yeah, and like attacks, like these judges and I just saw something like that a few months ago.

Speaker 4: 40:43

Some chick was some woman judge denied this guy's parole or yes, that's what I saw and, and then he just said fuck it, and he jumped over the thing after everybody like was beating the crap out of her. Then some guys, they're trying to help you beat the crap out of him got the judge. Yeah, he got to her yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:59

Oh yeah, he jumped over the bench.

Speaker 4: 41:00

Yeah, like, like a leap and then like bow, like, and then and then the what are those called a bailiff or whatever? Yeah, he was just standing there watching it like man.

Speaker 2: 41:07

I get that bailiff was like a hundred and ten years old.

Speaker 4: 41:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he was just like look man, I'm gonna get hold, he was just there for show. Yeah, but that's scary. I won't want to be a judge, just cuz no.

Speaker 1: 41:18

I always talk about like just being a judge and you're putting away like mob dudes or something or even somebody's like.

Speaker 4: 41:24

Yeah, family member where they're just like they can find out where you live. Pretty, there's some revenge concerns there.

Speaker 2: 41:30

So the trial began on June 15th and, as Matt had mentioned, you know, with this amount of evidence and everything going against him and Manson Just being a crazy bastard, this thing was done within months. It was done by November 16th, not, but you know, five months later, interestingly enough, the defense, which is these six people on trial, except Kassabian she, you know sung for immunity. The defense rested without calling a single witness. Of course, true to their, their guru. Near the end, the three women were willing to take all of the blame and actually they were claiming Manson's innocence Like no Charlie had nothing to do with it.

Speaker 1: 42:10

Yeah, they're still protecting them. It's crazy.

Speaker 2: 42:12

Well, when that didn't work, the three women blamed all of the planning, all of the execution, all everything on Linda Kassabian. That's right. That's the prosecution's star witness. Not surprisingly, that didn't work either. On January 25th 1971, all four defendants were found guilty on all charges, 27 counts each. On March 29th 1971, all four defendants were sentenced to death. Fun fact between the verdict and penalty phases, manson shaved his head. The three chicks then shaved their heads.

Speaker 1: 42:52

Yeah, you see some of the trial footage and stuff, like they were skipping along drink into that.

Speaker 4: 42:56

They just like skip.

Speaker 1: 42:57

I thought you were going for something deeper than no, no, no, like they were just like taking it so lightly, like you're dealing with Murder this is the rest of your life. We're going to jail and it just goes to show like how far out these.

Speaker 4: 43:08

Yeah, they were brainwashed, they were high a lot. Yeah, who's getting like like I don't know the whole Manson thing? I think when the whole thing was done, like they said in his family or maybe like what, 70 to 100 maybe. Members.

Speaker 1: 43:23

I Don't, like I said, I know that the number that I saw when they were actually on spawn ranch was like 32, maybe and then, like seven children, because, for instance, that that Cassavion was married, living in a trailer nearby, she had to happen to meet, I forget, one of the girls gypsy was her name Brought her to the ranch gypsy rose gypsy rose.

Speaker 1: 43:45

Yeah, gypsy rose Introduced her to you know, everybody. Tex ended up hooking up with her at night and they she had brought her kid with her and they they were like, oh, we'll take care of your kid. And they put the kid over here and they're like, what do you have to offer? You know? And she's like, oh, he has money in his, in his trailer. They go back and still five grand. So if you can give them anything, they'll take you in. Like, if you have money, if you have connections, you're valuable to them. Yep Plus, she had her driver's license.

Speaker 1: 44:09

Yeah, that's a lot of them didn't have, which is weird to think, but that was important because a lot of them didn't have valid driver's license. So it was all about like what you could offer to them and if you could offer something, money or you know, a skill or whatever, you were valuable to them so they would build.

Speaker 1: 44:25

It has them both and you know, they, she said, about her interaction with him when she first met him. He was in working on a dune buggy and she walked into the room and Charlie got up and got down. I was like kissing her feet and doing all this weird shit, but it's probably all.

Speaker 4: 44:40

That's all like mind wash. Mine yeah, it's probably something that like in her mind she's like yeah, she's probably like no man has ever like wanted me this much or worshiped me like this or touched my feet and she was like, oh, this guy's amazing, did it say? Did it say Manson was an exquisite lover? That's how he had these women like eating out of the palm of his hand. Exquisite lover, he took his time.

Speaker 1: 45:01

Well, that's back to something I referenced on one of the other other episodes, when we were talking about his sexuality and whether he was bisexual, or he was just looking for a warm wet hole. So there was a guy I forget the name, but it was somebody who was in the Manson family or part of all this, and he brought up a time where a new girl came and they had like an origin. People were hanging out and doing stuff and Charlie asked the girl to perform oral sex on me.

Speaker 4: 45:25

She was like On you, on me.

Speaker 1: 45:26

Yeah. I wasn't there yet. I wasn't there yet. But Charlie said to her give me head. Basically, to put it bluntly, that's kind of how he put it and the girl went down and started performing oral sex and he was like, not like that. And he called the guy over show her how to do this, dang.

Speaker 1: 45:43

So, the guy was like what do I do? He was like but I was so like deep into this I figured I got to do it because I got to like. So I went over and he said I showed her how to do it and in his mind, like Charlie was you know, the second coming of Jesus? And all that like in his mind, this guy was legit, so he would do things like that Play mind games on people.

Speaker 4: 46:04

Do we talk about that? Where you made him? Oh go ahead.

Speaker 1: 46:07

Sorry, no, but I was saying like with that, something like that was that. Was he bisexual or was he just using power like that?

Speaker 2: 46:13

It's that it was the latter. Yeah, Got off on his power. He to him it didn't matter, he didn't care.

Speaker 1: 46:18

Right.

Speaker 2: 46:20

He, just this guy, grew up in prison. For Christ's sake.

Speaker 1: 46:22

Yeah, they said 17 of his first 33 years of life were in prison or some kind of you know, student or not student home, what they call that with the kids.

Speaker 2: 46:32

Boys town or whatever.

Speaker 1: 46:33

But what are they called that reform school? Yeah.

Speaker 4: 46:35

Yeah, it's just saying not to say that that he got lonely in prison or anything. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:41

I'm sure he got lonely. I'm sure he did.

Speaker 4: 46:44

No, but didn't they have? Wasn't there? Did we talk about where he did the whole? He got everybody high and like he had the whole crucifixion that he did.

Speaker 1: 46:51

What I don't know about that. You guys see that, no Okay.

Speaker 4: 46:54

He did a whole thing. One of the documentaries I saw. He got everybody high and he's like we're going to do redo the crucifixion of Christ. So he came out dressed up, he had like the crown of thorns and all that other stuff. He had like the guys putting them up on the cross. He like did this whole thing where he got everybody high and like and he was like you know, I am, I am Jesus's son, and all this other shit. So he had them so into, like you said, the second coming and all this other stuff.

Speaker 1: 47:18

He was big on mixing the Beatles and the Bible and all those things together were in his message, Like it was Beatles lyrics and Bible, you know a lot of stuff out of revelation and all that that he used to kind of push his message and that's how he tried to connect everything that's crazy.

Speaker 2: 47:33

But yeah, he was man. Oh, so I guess Manson, he will claim up and down and all of his people will claim up and down that he never. He never murdered any of the people, he never did anything. But the what was the name of the district attorney at the time? He's the one that went on to write the book Helter Skelter and he had this is like Gugliani or something Not. Giuliani, but it's not like an.

Speaker 2: 47:55

Italian it's Boogliosi, boogliosi, there you go Not to be confused with Mr Booglio, right? So Boogliosi was his name, I guess. He just was able to keep pushing and pushing and pushing and he linked basically the fact that, like, this guy had control of these people so much that he is just as culpable as they are Right the fact he did he might not have done it, but he commanded it. It's essentially like a since mafia is in the in the conversation. It's essentially like the Godfather can get busted, like the Don can get busted just because because he's the one that commanded it. Like you know, he had somebody else push a button on a guy, but it was by virtue of his command that this guy had to do his job to get it to kill that guy. So he's just as guilty.

Speaker 1: 48:38

Yeah, I don't know. I'm no scientist. It's like a weapon and you're pulling the trigger.

Speaker 2: 48:42

That's right. Yeah, that's right. On December 13th 1971, Manson was convicted for the additional murder of Gary Hinman and the murder of Donald Shea.

Speaker 1: 48:54

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:54

No relation to Ice Cube.

Speaker 1: 48:56

No, I can't wait to give him at his nickname.

Speaker 2: 48:59

So on Donald Shea. On August 26th 1969, shea went for a car ride with Bruce Davis, tex Watson and Steve Grogan. He was a quarterback from Seattle Seahawks.

Speaker 4: 49:11

That's right.

Speaker 1: 49:12

Steve Grogan, it's exactly that. And the Patriots.

Speaker 4: 49:14

Yeah, the Patriots for a year or two, yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:16

Davis and Grogan sat in the back seat of the car Tex drove. Shea sat in the front passenger seat. Number three had all been directed to murder Shea by none other Charles. Manson. Grogan bludgeoned Shea in the head with a pipe wrench. Watson stabbed him. In 1972, the death penalty was declared unconstitutional in California. Manson was then resentenced to life in prison. He went on to spend the remainder of his life in prison, dying on November 19th 2017, at 83 years old.

Speaker 1: 49:55

So that Donald Shea's nickname was Shorty Shea. I thought that'd be like I thought I'm mad with things. For me That'd be a good rap name.

Speaker 4: 50:01

Yeah, that's what I heard. Like like Shea Shorty Shea, shorty Shea.

Speaker 1: 50:04

That was my nickname from me back in the day, the Shea. So I was thinking that, yeah, they called that guy Shorty.

Speaker 4: 50:10

Shea. Shea or Shadow was also a big one.

Speaker 2: 50:12

I don't remember Shea. I remember Shea, I don't remember Shea.

Speaker 1: 50:15

Well, at the one practice, Coach Lawrence made a comment about we're going to give the ball to the Shea a little bit. This is on JV football. He's like we're going to run the Shea a little bit, so Matt would use that the. Shea.

Speaker 1: 50:28

The. Shea yeah, the Shea. So the nickname of this guy was Shorty Shea. Yeah, that's a great name Manson told people that he had hacked this guy up and actually dismembered the body Interesting. There was people saying that he was spreading that around. I cut him into nine pieces and spread it all over Spawn Ranch.

Speaker 4: 50:48

So the body was never found.

Speaker 1: 50:49

They did find the body then I couldn't find out if it was a complete skeleton or pieces, or if any of that was ever I got to believe this was Charles Manson trying to make himself look and sound more menacing than he really was. More than he was. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:02

Let's not forget, old Charlie Manson was a short little dude. He was crazy as fuck, but he was just a short little dude.

Speaker 1: 51:09

But back to that like how his size and stature, like he would get challenged. They said like when he was on Spawn Ranch, some of those ranch hands that were there before they moved would challenge him. One of the guys was like double his size and he was getting pissed, like he was trying to get control of these people as well, and he went and rushed on him, like up on him, and Charlie just stood there and took out a match and held it under his own wrist and you could smell, they said. The people that were there that are recounting this story said you could smell the burning flesh.

Speaker 1: 51:36

And he was like pain is nothing to me or whatever, and this guy was like so freaked out, like what's wrong with this guy?

Speaker 4: 51:42

G Gordon Liddy can do that. It's that mind control shit.

Speaker 1: 51:45

And it kind of reversed it on the guy and the guy was freaked out and was like well, whatever, and kind of let him be, but he would do shit like that. There was one time where he was out preaching the people about like how there was no such thing as stealing and thievery and because you don't own anything, nobody owns anything. And then the one guy goes well, give me keys to your bus. Then he's like here you go. He gave the guy the keys of that. Remember they had that big, largest family bus.

Speaker 1: 52:09

He drove off with this bus. This guy left and they're like Charlie, what are you doing? The guy came back about an hour later and gave him the keys back and they would see shit like that and think this guy must be like mystical or something Like how did he know that? You know what I mean.

Speaker 4: 52:22

He just didn't give a shit. He's like I don't care, Correct.

Speaker 1: 52:25

But when all this shit was not going his way like he, the music part, and then the race war never happened and all that, all these failures. You would think with these people, or they would have like.

Speaker 2: 52:35

Correct. They would have seen the writing on the wall like this is not the second comic. This guy's just an asshole.

Speaker 4: 52:39

Right, nope, they stuck around, but it was the whole record thing, the whole him thinking he was going to be like the next Beatles or like you know. That's the whole thing that got him so messed up.

Speaker 1: 52:49

I was amazed how many like superstars his music got in front of. Now we talked about Neil Young and we talked obviously about Dennis Wilson, the Beach Boys, but Mama Cass, frank Zappa there was some names that I was like wow. But I guess when you're in LA it's not, it's a stone's throw and you're going to hit a celebrity.

Speaker 4: 53:05

I could see Zappa hearing about this guy being like I'd like to see what this guy's like, or something like that.

Speaker 1: 53:09

Well, a lot of them other than Neil Young was the only one that I heard said like, oh, this guy's got talent, but a lot of them passed on it. They played like demos for him and stuff like that. But yeah, he had people, just fooled man. It's crazy.

Speaker 2: 53:22

It's crazy. This guy was just a jackoff, but you know, I got to say the people that were part of this. They might be just as bad, if not worse. Like I'm actually glad that you're gone or done because you people are stupid sheep, like what the hell is wrong with you. Why would you listen to this guy?

Speaker 1: 53:40

But it happens over and over and over again, like think about since man's, and how many times.

Speaker 2: 53:45

we've sure you know Koresh you name the guy with the guy with the Kool-Aid. The guy with the Kool-Aid used to this day Like don't drink the Kool-Aid. Jones Jones Town or Jones Jones.

Speaker 4: 53:56

This is like yeah, jones Town, but no like. But how you said, people just want something to believe in not to who am I quoting on that one?

Speaker 4: 54:05

Brett Michaels, yes, but yeah, they just want something because they have nothing at this time in their lives. They're young or you know, they might like their spouse might have just left them, they don't have any money, they're down on their luck. And there's this guy like hey, everything's all right, like we got you, we have all these people that'll take. We take care of each other and they bring them into this and people just get mushy in the head man.

Speaker 2: 54:27

This guy's real fucked up. Oh, fun fact. I don't know if we discussed this. I don't think we did. Danny Treyo, the famous actor, was in prison with Manson during Manson's second stint in prison in the early 60s.

Speaker 1: 54:42

Yeah, I don't know if it came up. I know there was one fun fact and I thought I think you thought I was going there with that, but it wasn't you mentioned the guitar teacher.

Speaker 2: 54:48

It was the guitar teacher.

Speaker 1: 54:49

Yeah, but yeah, I did read that too about Treyo. That's pretty wild.

Speaker 2: 54:53

Danny. So Danny was later asked about Manson, what he thought of Manson and man, and he just basically said he was some guy who was into hypnosis because I think at the time Treyo was taking hypnosis classes as well, like they were both basically just in the same hypnosis class while in prison. He was like, yeah, this guy was a dumb ass. There was some jerk off, like he was into hypnosis and he was a terrible guitar player.

Speaker 4: 55:14

Well, Treyo was a murderer too right. Was any involved or did he know he was?

Speaker 2: 55:18

into murder. I know he was into drugs for sure, Okay machete, machete he was. He was a for real drug dealer. All right, oh, we mentioned it earlier, fun fact, or at least we mentioned it in a different episode.

Speaker 1: 55:31

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:32

Manson was featured on the cover of Rolling Stone in June 1970. I'm gonna get on that cover. I wonder how many Issues they sold copies probably a lot.

Speaker 4: 55:42

It's Rolling Stone.

Speaker 1: 55:43

Yeah, people were probably intrigued by that, the story and everything. I Would think.

Speaker 2: 55:48

I would think I also intriguing as time goes on in Mansons in prison in 1975 to Manson family members Sandra, good and squeaky from had moved to Sacramento to be closer to Manson. Sounds like another rap name squeaky from.

Speaker 1: 56:07

Would you know how she got that nickname squeaky?

Speaker 2: 56:09

I can't voice. Is it a sex thing?

Speaker 1: 56:11

Well, the the spawn, george spawn, that was like the one that he kind of liked.

Speaker 4: 56:15

Oh, that's right.

Speaker 1: 56:16

He would pinch her and stuff and she would make these squeaky little giggles, yeah he gave her that nickname squeaky. Oh yeah, george spawn was a perv dude. He was grabbing a blind perv.

Speaker 2: 56:26

So at Manson's direction again. Now this is from prison from Unsuccessfully attempted to assassinate president Gerald Ford. Now this chick was all of a yard away from him. She pulled a gun and fired it at him Without a bullet in the chamber and she just she shot at the president with a Gun not loaded. She was sentenced to life in prison for that. She ended up escaping from prison a little more than 10 years later in hopes of visiting Manson. Why? Because she'd heard he developed cancer a colon cancer?

Speaker 2: 57:04

Yeah, well, she was swiftly apprehended as a result, but oh good for squeaky. She was released on parole in 2009. That is bananas that is crazy bananas. This guy's in jail four years later. He somehow convinces these chicks hey man, you got to go assassinate the president. She goes to assassinate the president and doesn't have bullets in the gun. She's a yard away from him, crazy.

Speaker 4: 57:28

Well, maybe that's why she got off or got released on parole is because it didn't have any bullets in it.

Speaker 1: 57:33

It's like something that it wasn't a deadly weapon.

Speaker 4: 57:35

Yeah, is it really anything if there's no bullets in a gun.

Speaker 2: 57:37

Let's not forget this was 34 years later, yeah. Yeah, true 34 years after she was arrested.

Speaker 4: 57:43

So I don't know man, Look you know, going with no bullets is like a rock you throw it at somebody, man.

Speaker 1: 57:49

Yeah, it was. It was weird to you talked about that whole thing with Manson being in prison and we're talking about high had control it's like what's her name? Griselda Griselda. Yeah Well, there were still people living at that ranch, why they were in prison. And people were coming to the ranch they wanted to join. The family and cult she's a man's and family.

Speaker 1: 58:06

while this trial is going on, you are so dumb. It's amazing with these trials with Bundy, we've seen it with Manson here, we'll talk about it. I'm attracted, people are attracted to that danger and that whatever, even though the guy is up for murder charges and People are attracted to it, that's not man.

Speaker 2: 58:24

Oh, I got one last fun fact. In 1984, manson suffered second and third degree burns on much of his body after a fellow inmate poured paint thinner on him and lit it on fire.

Speaker 4: 58:38

Was he under protective? Any kind of protection, I gotta believe. After this he was in prison.

Speaker 1: 58:43

I would think so, with his Status, notoriety like going in the prison. You know I'm saying in my, in my, in my.

Speaker 4: 58:52

Just gotta look it up, yeah in white.

Speaker 2: 58:56

Oh, but no, there's only three, not four. So yeah, that's all I got on Chuck Manson.

Speaker 1: 59:01

Yeah, charles Manson, I mean the guys Been in pop culture ever since then everything. Yeah, you think about that, our whole lives the band Marilyn Manson and the guys named Marilyn Manson it's. He took what Somebody like a was it model. Well, I guess Marilyn Manson, she was definitely a model. Yeah, sure and he would mix that with like Manson, who's like notorious for being a murderer. And then Twiggy Ramirez. Twiggy was a model and. Richard Ramirez, last name. So all the band members names were to do with murders and models, I guess.

Speaker 1: 59:34

Okay, okay but uh, yeah, so you think about Marilyn Manson, you think about all the things Manson's has been the t-shirts we see, like Matt referenced about was it guns and roses.

Speaker 3: 59:43

It was a guns and roses yeah so I mean the guys just everywhere.

Speaker 1: 59:47

That's why I said growing up I always attached that image to evil.

Speaker 4: 59:51

I don't know what it was, but he just kind of knew, you know we can go online like now and get Manson's though I'm sure Halter Skelter sells well still the book.

Speaker 1: 59:59

Yeah, it's a very intriguing story. I mean it was gonna give me a Manson t-shirt.

Speaker 2: 1:00:04

No, I'm curious, where does the, where does the, the royalties go like for his like name, like the name like this, an image, all that stuff. Now that the College players are getting money right, oh, where does Charles name image and likeness?

Speaker 4: 1:00:18

go. I don't think there is anything on it. I think it just goes to whatever t-shirt company. Does it go to?

Speaker 2: 1:00:23

Valentine Michael.

Speaker 1: 1:00:25

Well, that's the thing. I don't know if has anybody kept the name and the connection. You know what family wise, I don't know. I Do know, like I said, the guy like you know, it's just everywhere Manson still to this day on t-shirts and stuff like that. Yeah but yeah, it was a crazy one. That was a lot to cover. Much like this was a lot to cover. There's other things, you know this was a thorough one.

Speaker 2: 1:00:48

This guy's done a lot. I mean, a guy like this is again somebody we've known, and at least known the name our entire lives.

Speaker 4: 1:00:55

This guy certainly deserved you know, at least three episodes worth I wonder if any of the listeners out there are like interested in any like the cult stuff or like these, these leaders, this cultist stuff, because there's there's a lot out there. There are there's some interesting stories behind them, like who was the guy that had the people where the Nikes said, like the UFO was coming.

Speaker 1: 1:01:15

Yeah, the heavens gate heavens gate. Yeah, that's another one. Like for me those sense.

Speaker 4: 1:01:20

Like hey, guys, we're gonna take these pills tonight. Get your sneakers on.

Speaker 1: 1:01:24

Yeah, I'd also like some feedback on if you like the deep dives. You like two part is three parters, or do you like it when it's one episode and you're done with it? I don't know. I feel like with this you couldn't do it in one episode.

Speaker 2: 1:01:36

No justice. No, this is so much. This had to be a big one.

Speaker 1: 1:01:39

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:01:40

I don't know my man's got to put in overtime, but that's, that's interesting. Yeah, do you guys? Like you know, like a one parter is a two-parter, good three-parters.

Speaker 1: 1:01:48

Mm-hmm speaking of which, I put out a poll on our Facebook today and I just see yeah, right, do you like the true crime better? Do you like the vintage cinema review?

Speaker 2: 1:01:57

Let us know, let us know. They definitely reach out. Inquiring minds want to know, I want to know hey guys, can you wrap it up? Oh, dang, we're working on it, I know, james.

Speaker 4: 1:02:08

All right.

Speaker 2: 1:02:08

Well, saved by the bell on that one.

Speaker 1: 1:02:11

Yeah, I.

Speaker 4: 1:02:12

Watched that the other day.

Speaker 1: 1:02:13

That's I love say by yeah, it's great every time I can catch it.

Speaker 2: 1:02:17

Oh, I got to throw this out before we, before we call it quits. I hope Mrs Dave isn't too angry, I shall be fine. Okay, the. It is beyond coincidental that, as I was doing this research and typing this up, just within the last week or two, I for the first time watched, and has been playing with regular Like serious regularity on television once upon a time, in Hollywood. Oh yeah, I'd never seen it before. What a great movie. Oh, it's great.

Speaker 1: 1:02:45

Love it. No, anything I didn't like. I shouldn't say I didn't like it. I guess because we're so deep into this. When I watched it.

Speaker 4: 1:02:51

Yeah, is what's changed and I don't want to ruin it for anybody, but what the whole if this would have?

Speaker 1: 1:02:56

happened. Yeah, yeah, so they like about it. I did like looking back, I like that, like zap saying it's a great movie.

Speaker 2: 1:03:03

It's neat I appreciate the interesting take that Quentin Tarantino did with that that oh, hey look, we understand that this is a serious, terrible thing that happened. We're gonna throw a little twist into this that, oh, this is what could have happened.

Speaker 1: 1:03:15

What it?

Speaker 4: 1:03:15

didn't but what?

Speaker 1: 1:03:16

if right and I can see where.

Speaker 4: 1:03:18

Yeah but it was. It was neat to watch because that's one of the things. When I saw it I didn't really I wasn't thinking much into like the and I was like wait, is that?

Speaker 1: 1:03:26

what happened yeah that would know that's not what happened?

Speaker 4: 1:03:28

No. Yeah, it was cool Tarantino's pretty good genius.

Speaker 1: 1:03:32

I do wonder if he tied in and speaking in that movie. So there were some Stunt men that lived at that spawn ranch, a couple guys. I got tied up with Charlie like in little disputes and whatnot, and I wonder if he based those characters, the de Caprio and the Brad Pitt, on those.

Speaker 1: 1:03:48

I wonder on those actors and the stuntman. There was one stuntman that actually, when Terry Melcher was there at the ranch to hear Charlie, this stuntman walked over and was drunk and stumbling and Charlie beat the shit out of him and that's what really turned Melcher off him and he was kind of freaked out like what's fucking wrong with this guy, jesus.

Speaker 4: 1:04:06

So yeah, the fall guy yeah what's his name?

Speaker 1: 1:04:09

Lee, major yeah he wasn't. Lee majors, but at any rate, I'm about to get knocked out here and geez, better wrap it up. Don't forget to leave that five star rating on Spotify. On Apple, you can leave a written review, like I say in the beginning, that really helps us out, and let a friend know if you enjoy it. And we'll be back next week with, hopefully, another vintage cinema review. I think we might do Rambo, so tune in for that. You guys got anything else?

Speaker 2: 1:04:32

No, I got nothing.

Speaker 4: 1:04:33

I guess that's it for now, so we'll catch you where on the flip side if we don't see you sooner, we'll see you later, thanks. Thanks for hanging out in the old, dirty basement. If you dig our theme music, like we do, check out the tsunami Experiment, find them on Facebook. Their music is available streaming on Spotify and Apple and where great music is available.

Speaker 1: 1:04:55

You can find us at old dirty basement on Facebook and Instagram and at old dirty basement podcast on tiktok. Peace we outie 5000.