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Ol' Dirty Basement: True Crime and Vintage Movie Reviews
Caught in the Crossfire: The Chilling Story of the DC Sniper
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What happens when your daily routine turns into a life-or-death situation? These were the terrifying realities faced by residents of the Washington DC metro area during the three harrowing weeks of October 2002, when the DC Sniper attacks unfolded. Join us as we recount the chilling details and the pervasive fear that gripped the community, starting with the first victim, James Martin, and continuing through a spree of seemingly random and unpredictable violence. You'll hear firsthand from Sean, who lived through the terror, offering a gripping personal perspective on this tragic period.
We'll guide you through the labyrinthine investigation that saw authorities overwhelmed by a flood of tips and false leads, including a critical misstep that could have cut the crisis short. Learn about the tactical errors made by the perpetrators and the public's reaction to the ongoing threat, fueled by speculation around a mysterious white panel van. From police chief Moose's public communications to the heightened security measures that altered daily life, discover how the investigation unfolded and the toll it took on the community psyche.
Finally, we examine the backgrounds of John Muhammad and Lee Malvo, whose troubled lives and dark mentorship culminated in these tragic events. Explore the makeshift sniper's nest in their car, the meticulous yet flawed tactics they employed, and the critical mistakes that led to their capture. Through vivid personal stories and detailed analysis, we reflect on the profound impact these attacks had on individuals and the broader community, capturing the fear and uncertainty that forever changed lives.
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thanks for tuning in to the old dirty basement. On today's episode we're covering the dc sniper a complete attack on completely random people.
Speaker 2:Over the course of what?
Speaker 3:three weeks. Yeah, in the fall of 2002 it uh put the dc metro area to a halt. Scary stuff, man very scary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we had a nice little interview with our buddy sean at the end of this, so make sure you stay tuned for that and, uh, leave us a five-star rating on Spotify. Apple, leave us a written review and sit back, relax and enjoy the DC Sniper.
Speaker 4:This is the old, dirty basement Home to debauchery, madness, murder and mayhem. A terror-filled train ride deep into the depths of the devil's den.
Speaker 1:With a little bit of humor.
Speaker 2:History and copious consciousness. I'm your announcer. Shallow Throat. Your hosts are Dave, matt and Zap.
Speaker 3:I love you, matthew McConaughey All right, all right, all right hey this is Dave, matt and Zap, and welcome to the old, dirty basement.
Speaker 1:Where every week we cover a true crime murder or compelling story, so sit back relax and comprehend compelling story.
Speaker 2:So sit back, relax and comprehend.
Speaker 3:Hello, hello, hello everyone, and welcome back to another edition of the Old Dirty Basement. I am Matt. With me always is Dave and Zap. Good morning gentlemen. Hey, what's?
Speaker 2:going on, good morning.
Speaker 3:Good evening, good afternoon.
Speaker 2:And good night.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what do you guys have in the scopes today?
Speaker 2:We got a ooh, I like that Right Well in my crosshairs. Today we're going to be covering the DC sniper where, over a three-week period in October 2002, residents of the Washington DC metropolitan area were gripped with fear as a series of coordinated shootings left 10 people dead and three critically injured. All victims were shot with a single bullet. All shots were taken from a great distance from the victims.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is some story and definitely stay tuned to the end. As we referenced in the intro, there'll be a nice little interview with somebody friend of the show, sean who was down in this area during the time and has a connection to this he was at first hand accounts first situation.
Speaker 2:So this is like one for the memory banks, right? So this is you remember where you were when certain things happen in american history. I mean, this is so for us, this is 22 years ago, going on 22 years ago, I mean I, I remember this quite, quite clearly.
Speaker 1:Looking at the date, this is not long after 9-11. And I remember thinking initially this is terrorist related or we're being attacked again. Um, it was definitely. We were on edge as a country, I believe, at the time, obviously for good reason, and uh, I remember in my in my head back then and maybe we'll find out in this story.
Speaker 3:I don't to give it away, but uh, that was my first initial thought oh no, I I don't really remember too much of it, like when you say it, like I know what the dc sniper and everything was. Um, then I watched some youtube things on it and then kind of most of it started coming back. I don't think it affected us that much in this area as much as they were there, but it it was still. I mean, it was still national, you know national news it was. It was crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just I, I definitely remember, especially at this time of the year for me, so it might, this would have been my first gig out of out of college, my first small, regional CPA firm, and I would spend the falls, basically like September, through the end of the year, uh, working in Philadelphia. And I just remember that when this was going down, there was that worry that you know, holy shit, if this is a big city thing, is it, is it going to move, is it going to be mobile, is it? Could this, could they be doing this here? And why not? It did you know it could certainly happen.
Speaker 1:You know, I always also think about like, um, like a public figure that is up in front of a big group of people. There's always, I'm sure, in the back of their head, that worry of what if somebody would try to take me out you know, what I mean and this story makes you feel like that's. These people in this area are probably feeling like that every day, Like any day you're up, you could just be doing your normal thing and getting shot at. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It's just it would have to be frightening, but I couldn't imagine what that feeling is Like. I said I was aware of it. It was in the back of my head. I didn't really think it was going to happen around here, but you never know. You don't even know, you don't even know.
Speaker 2:It's interesting when you throw that kind of perspective on it. So, the president, when you somebody's going to gun for you, you know it.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So, as a result, you have secret service. You have all kinds of stuff. You keep distance. You have forces and forces of police in front of you and behind you at all times, scoping things out and making sure everything's cool. These are just regular, everyday Joe blow people that you know. None of us can you know we, we don't have that kind of luxury, that that to have secret service and people looking out for us and now it's.
Speaker 2:It's exactly as you had said. Like you go from, only the important people are getting shot to man. I mean anybody can just get sniped right all right.
Speaker 2:The first shooting occurred on october 2nd 2002. James martin was the first victim. Employed as a program analyst, he was shot dead outside a grocery store in Wheaton, maryland. The next day, october 3rd, saw five victims, four of whom were killed before 10 am that morning. 39-year-old James L Buchanan, a landscaper by trade, was shot while mowing the grass at the Fitzgerald Auto Malls. 54-year-old Prem Kumar Walakar, a taxi driver, was killed in Aspen Hill, northern Maryland, while pumping gas into his taxi. 34-year-old Sarah Ramos, a babysitter and housekeeper, was killed at the Leisure World Shopping Center in Norbeck, northern Maryland, while reading a book at a bus stop bench. 25-year-old Lorianne Lewis-Riviera was killed while cleaning her minivan in Kensington, maryland. 72-year-old Pascal Charlotte was shot simply taking a walk at night in Washington DC. The October 3rd spree set panic in motion and the infamous DC sniper came to be so dude. Five in one day, four of them before 10 am.
Speaker 1:I don't know how quick the news was picking up and connecting these. You know what I mean, because this is a pretty big area, like we'll probably end up talking about here. Um, but you would think that these random shootings, like, how are they differentiating between, like just like I'm gonna, how many daily shootings there are in that? And but these are suburbs, so I mean, it's not like a city or right.
Speaker 2:So, like gang crime and you know whatever kind of you know violent like that, that's in the in the hood. They, you know, they, they toss that to the side. They just that's a given that you're going to have X number of kills. These were just innocent civs at the most random of random places getting killed.
Speaker 1:So you think this was hitting the news that night like, oh man, there's a shooting spree going on. They connected them that quick.
Speaker 2:I mean, I got to believe that the local news was on something about this.
Speaker 3:Like hey man, this guy was shot, this guy was shot.
Speaker 1:This guy was shot. It's just the most random things Again. Random people movie on it. I think it was called um something, dc sniper and it was on uh prime was that? The one is like really bad. Yeah, really bad. It's horrible, really bad it is. I tried watching.
Speaker 1:It's like three actors that nobody knows who they are it basically like you ever watch a documentary where, like, there's real cheesy cut scenes and then they interview people, yeah, so this is like all those cheesy cut scenes put in together in two hours like a whole movie of that okay but uh, okay, so that makes sense. Then if they, if they were on it, that quick.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they were saying that the fbi and I guess they alerted like there were seven or nine put to the case right away after like the third shooting, just because it was in the proximity of it uh, I got because they are.
Speaker 1:I guess it's pretty close. Then the other thing got me to thinking is like which I think zap's going to reference in the next thing is like how random that the people there's no really rhyme or reason to ages or sex or, you know, race or anything like that think about like, uh, the son of sam, like david, was that david berkowitz? Yep, so he didn't. He have like a specific type, like and like people were girls, were dying their hair correct.
Speaker 2:He was going after a specific chick just because that's what his head, oh, and his dog was talking to telling him. His dog was telling him what to do like kill blondes or brunettes, I forget what it was so with this like nobody's safe, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3:it's nobody but that's what I think threw everybody off so quickly like there. There was no rhyme or reason. Like you said, random, yeah, it was completely random.
Speaker 2:Indeed, the attacks were random, targeting people of all ages, genders and races. No one felt safe. People were being shot while doing everyday activities pumping gas, walking to school, mowing lawns, you name it. Police remained baffled. One thing police knew the sniper was incredibly accurate, often shooting from a distance and disappearing well before help could arrive. October 4th saw the next victim. 43-year-old Caroline Sewell was shot in the chest in a parking lot of the Spotsylvania Mall. She was not killed, however, only wounded. Three days later, october 7th marked the next instance where young 13-year-old Iron Brown was shot in the chest and critically wounded. When he arrived at school, he too lived Now, it should be noted. At this crime scene, empty magazine, a shell casing and a tarot card were discovered. The tarot card was the death card and on it was written for you, mr police, code, call me god, do not release to the press I know too, like that uh, 13 year old that got shot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like the news was reporting on on us and they would say stuff like well, there's been no children killed yet. Well, the next murder was a child. Or like every time they would report something on the news like oh they're, they're. When they were trying to narrow it down and say, oh, they're targeting x, y or z or not doing it here or there. The next one would be almost like they were maybe watching the news and going all right.
Speaker 2:Let's do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just to throw them off. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Not only two days after the October 7th shooting, 53-year-old Dean Harold Myers, a civil engineer, was shot dead while pumping gas in Manassas, Virginia, on October 9th. Two days later, on October 11th, 53-year-old Kenneth Bridges, a businessman, was shot dead while pumping gas near Fredericksburg, Virginia. Three days later, October 14th, 47-year-old Linda Franklin, an intelligence analyst, was shot dead in a Home Depot parking lot near Falls Church, Virginia. The sniper laid low for a few days, until October 19th, when 37-year-old Jeffrey Hopper was shot in a parking lot near a Ponderosa Steakhouse in Ashland, Virginia. He survived. He survived Now. At this crime scene, the police discovered a four-page letter in the woods having been penned by the shooter, threatening to shoot children and demanding $10 million. Three days later, October 22nd, 35-year-old Conrad Johnson, a bus driver, was shot and killed in Aspen Hill, Maryland. I miss Ponderosa, by the way.
Speaker 1:I was going to say are they even around?
Speaker 3:I think anything after COVID, anything that involved people dipping their hands and stuff. Buffets yeah buffets have died.
Speaker 2:I don't know man. There's one buffet out in Lancaster that is nationally renowned for its-.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, you get free birthday dinner Incredibleness yeah, what's that called Shady?
Speaker 2:Maples.
Speaker 3:Shady Maples. Oh, shady, shady Maples.
Speaker 1:There's one to Miller's Smorgasbord. Ooh, is that in Lancaster? Maybe I'm confused.
Speaker 2:I don't know man. I'll tell you that that's Shady Maple. If you haven't been dude, go shop downstairs it's pretty neat, it's fun.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, dude, people are dying, babies are crying. What's what's with the 10 million dollar letter, or the 10 million dollar um letter that they had out? Was that from them?
Speaker 2:yeah, okay it was essentially like a it's blackmail, it's uh, what's that called? When you uh extortion, extortion, it's whatever it is. It's like look, we're gonna ask you where we want 10 million dollars and if we don't get 1010 million, we're going to start shooting children.
Speaker 1:I don't see how you think you're going to get away with that and like trying to get the money, like they're not going to track that. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I know they don't think this through. I don't know how that could ever work.
Speaker 3:Extortion worked in like the 40s and 50s. It's not a thing anymore.
Speaker 1:They can track everything. Now, yeah, I know, at this time too, there was a half a million dollar reward that authorities were offering, you know, and because of that the tip line was like overwhelmed.
Speaker 2:It was like over 100,000 calls, I'm sure, and there was actually a call from there's got to be some false leads in there, if not most, if not all of them.
Speaker 1:There was a lead that came in that fell through the cracks, and we'll talk about that a little bit later. But yeah, they could have ended this early.
Speaker 3:Well, American Greed, they could have shut things down for like a week. Check things out. It could have been like hey, everybody stay home week, right, right, how about them apples back to work? Yeah, that's what they say. Get back there, Get back to work.
Speaker 2:The, uh, the, the randomness with this shit. I mean like again pumping gas, pumping gas home Depot parking lot, ponderosa parking lot, like dude, you're just some random Tom, dick or Harry and that's hey, peace out. That's the end of your life?
Speaker 3:I'm trying to think is do we have anything stating when the when the cops, or when they did, put out on the news that this is cause they knew what the caliber of the bullet, they knew from like the distances they were shooting, who these people were? They knew it was the person cause it was the same round. So when did they say we know it's one person that is doing the shooting, or did they just keep it random for people to even be more freaked?
Speaker 2:out. I thought I had read something about this and, dave, please jump in. The cops were quite loquacious about this. They would talk to the police chief. I forget his name, morris, it was Moose, moose, that's it Moose. He would do interviews as though he was actually talking to the sniper.
Speaker 1:They were very much an open book. They said on this, anything they really had, they kind of let it out in the press. I mean there were some things they kept back.
Speaker 3:but even that tarot card thing was something that said did not release it, somehow it got leaked yeah and they were kind of upset about that but yeah, but after like the third, fourth, fifth shooting, they knew exactly the caliber of the bullet. They knew it was the same gun. They knew it was one person.
Speaker 1:At this point, so I see what you're saying. Did they connect it and go? Hey, this is like yeah, did they say hey?
Speaker 3:there's, there's one person out there, you know, but they didn't have anything for them to stay alert. Like you know, look out for this or look out for that.
Speaker 1:They had no clue yeah, well, like you said, that white panel van it was one of the first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, somebody said there was a white panel which maybe is right, maybe wrong, maybe right maybe wrong it's, so I I can see where you're at, matt, I can definitely see that, and I would imagine that at some point that there's a hope to that well, I mean I would put it out to like calm the masses, like hey, there, it's only one random person.
Speaker 3:So like a gang yeah, it's not a gang, it's not a bunch of people just out taking pop shots I got you.
Speaker 2:I wonder how calming that would be, like, hey, at least it's not a gang. So all you're looking for is somebody that you can't see yeah, that's yeah.
Speaker 3:They didn't have, you're right, they didn't have any way to describe this person or persons it's which is better.
Speaker 2:I guess. This way, you're just not questioning everybody around you and saying, oh my god, you could be the shooter. No, you could be the shooter. Hey, man, you could be a shooter. Hey, I don't like the way you look at. You know, dressed at walmart today, you could be a shooter I would still be at home it wasn't like uh, guys in vests, right, it says warriors on the warriors yeah, dude, I wonder, oh man, I I wonder where people walking around with like kevlar bulletproof vests, anything by by this point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got to imagine the Army surplus stores got hit up hard.
Speaker 3:Like I said, I wouldn't be pumping gas in the general area. I would already be staying inside. I would have my kids inside. I wouldn't be sending. Did the school shut down or anything during this?
Speaker 1:I would imagine maybe they kept them inside for recess. I know that. Yeah, for damn sure.
Speaker 2:They kept the kids inside for recess, but I mean school was still going, yeah.
Speaker 1:Invisibility cloaks were flying off the shelves.
Speaker 2:Off the shelves.
Speaker 3:Harry Potter would approve. Cloak of the Bat. Cloak of the Bat.
Speaker 2:What's that? That's a Dungeons and Dragons reference oh okay, that was a good one, all right. No-transcript to a guy named John Muhammad and a detailed profile of the killers began to take shape. To fully understand the DC sniper attacks, we need to take a step back and look at the lives of these two.
Speaker 3:Hold on to that Before you start delving into that. They say there was the fingerprint on a magazine left at the minute, so this is not this is not time right, this is not time, or uh rolling stone but I'm just saying like, I'm like why they have everything inside, whatever they were using to be mobile, not not giving anything away yet we'll learn about it in a second here but why would you just be like, oh, I'm done with this, throw it out?
Speaker 2:I got to believe something. Something somehow, some way went awry. Like it is, If the guy dropped a tarot card on purpose, that means he left the automobile, whatever it was.
Speaker 3:I could see that that done on purpose. I got to think that the magazine must have slipped out of the somehow it fell through the door just the door, or because they probably had all kinds of stuff in there from being mobile inside it, you know.
Speaker 1:So they just got sloppy or maybe that one they didn't do from their car, van or wherever they're in. Maybe they were out, you know, maybe that particular shooting was out.
Speaker 2:Okay, maybe they're maybe just chilling and just left it behind yeah, so for clarity on magazine, we are talking a part of a rifle yeah or any weapon I should say that accepts bullets you know, except revolvers.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm sorry, yeah, like not time.
Speaker 1:Well, you know I'm an idiot because when I first was reading through this I was thinking, wondering what magazine it was reading, like I didn't even playboy. Yeah, exactly, I wasn't even thinking like sports.
Speaker 3:illustrated swimsuit edition Right, so a magazine sniper weekly or sniper weekly running.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so a magazine is. If I understand correctly, it's it's any device connected to a weapon clip a clip magazine fits into a magazine. So any, any weapon with accepting a revolver, any weapon accepting a revolver uses a magazine. However, not all not all weapons use clips. Sometimes some clips fit into magazines.
Speaker 3:Some weapons just use magazines. Do you think maybe that was a cry for help?
Speaker 2:Maybe, maybe. What did he cry for? What? The? What kind of help?
Speaker 3:Like help, maybe, maybe what did he cry for? What, though? What kind of help? Like man, I really want a cheeseburger. No, like like I, I'm under the influence of this person, or, you know, maybe, maybe, he had enough maybe just to leave yeah, like you said, just to leave a magazine that that holds, just to drop it or not be like oh shit, we better find that just sounds funny like he's giving hints, yes, like yeah, clues, or maybe he just didn't think it through, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know sloppiness is inevitably going to happen, though, right like somebody always gets sloppy, except, except for the zodiac killer yeah, he never did.
Speaker 1:No, he never got caught. Oh, maybe, who's to say allegedly, allegedly?
Speaker 2:but let's talk about these two dudes right, lee Malvo and John Muhammad. Yes, so John Muhammad, an army veteran with a troubled past, had a significant influence over Lee Malvo, who was a teenager from Jamaica who found himself under Muhammad's sway. Muhammad had a history of failed marriages and military service that left him disillusioned, shall we say. After losing a bitter custody battle, muhammad kidnapped his three children and took them to Antigua, where he met Malbo and his mother, una. For Malbo, the young man from a broken home, muhammad became a father figure and mentor. Una left her son, lee, in Muhammad's hands at some point in 2000, when she illegally immigrated to Florida with the understanding that Muhammad and her son would arrive shortly thereafter. In March 2001, Muhammad converted Malvo to Islam after he'd been a Christian his whole life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that John Muhammad was an expert in like fake documents. Documents. That was kind of his little side gig. He could fake anything for you Really. So that's kind of how Malvo connected with him as well to get his mom like fake documentation to get into the country and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:So Muhammad had a bad military past. He had bad marriages. He kidnapped his own kids, took him to antigua, met this other, met this single mother with a kid of her own and hey look, man, you want to get to america. I'll make some fake documents for you can go, we'll be right behind you that was especially we say, yeah, muhammad was, he was troubled you don't say
Speaker 1:he's a troubled man you know, I saw a thing too Muhammad was, he was troubled. You don't say he's a troubled man. You know, I saw a thing too that, um, like he was like 41 at this time, 40, 41, but right out of high school, like I forget what the job was, but they were talking about his early life. Like when I say early life, right out of high school he had a job paying the equivalent of like 60 to $70 an hour, like today's money. Uh, he like today's money, uh he was very successful.
Speaker 1:He was like, had a lot of success with the women, had a nice car. They were talking about his early life, um and uh, yeah, hey, now for real. But then life started going uh, after the military and stuff like he came back very bitter and I guess things started going downhill. After that. He was in a dark place. Now, this time of his life well, he had to have money.
Speaker 3:I mean, the guy's traveling to Antigua, like let's just go to Antigua to hang.
Speaker 1:I think he was making that money from the fake documents. Yeah, doing that little side stuff.
Speaker 3:Side hustle, so he was hustling.
Speaker 2:I gotta believe when you kidnap your own kids, you wanna get the hell out of Dodge.
Speaker 1:You wanna get as far right I'm sorry, american police as possible police and he converted to islam. His original his like birth name was not jim.
Speaker 2:Yeah, john muhammad, I forget what the original last name was oh, like it was john smith, it was john, something like that john uh, john uh, henry, or something like that.
Speaker 3:He was a steel driving man mama named john henry.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna call him john henry that boy can sing uh, let's see, let's see, let's see, yeah. So he went to John Muhammad after converting them, oh yeah, and he converted Malvo, or. Malvo said you know what, I look up to you, you're a pretty good guy. You've been really nice to my mom, who since left me in your, in your care after she made her way to Miami.
Speaker 1:Oh, miami, oh you know, I'll go into islam too. Yeah, this kid had a rough day as well that malvo had a really rough childhood.
Speaker 2:They said, yeah, he was. He was back and forth between basically a number of homes, but it was all siblings. By siblings I mean extended family, like he lived with his aunt or he lived with an uncle or he lived with grandma or he lived someplace else, no, something like that.
Speaker 3:But and muhammad was um, he, he tried to bring like Malvo into like he was his father figure. He would tell him different things. He would, he was like Drake was with, like young, young women. He would, he would, he would like try to.
Speaker 1:Drake the rapper, yeah.
Speaker 3:He would try to um, like, persuade them, show. He was trying to show Malvo that hey, like this world is so screwed up, Like I would like you to be something different in this world and this is how we're going to do it. I think he tried to mold a young mind. He was.
Speaker 1:He was bad dude well that muhammad too passed him off as his son. A lot sure they were making their travels, but that's an easy way to say.
Speaker 3:You know who's this young kid hanging out with you?
Speaker 2:exactly a great way to avoid questioning right. For the longest time, police had been on the lookout for a white van. Time and time again a white van had been seen at or near the crime scenes. I thought there'd be an OJ reference in there, you would think Not a white Bronco. But once Malvo and Muhammad came under investigation, a visit with Muhammad's ex-wife revealed that he owned a dark blue 1990 Chevy Caprice. The focus swiftly shifted from a white van to a dark blue sedan.
Speaker 1:Was that the cop? Car styles too, the Caprice yeah the Caprice yep. I wonder if that well, I guess at this time they weren't in service those type of Caprices. Sure.
Speaker 2:Oh, were they. Well, you're saying was a 10-year-old car still in service with the police.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in other words like uh, they rotate through their stock right. Could this car been mistaken for law enforcement, or I wonder if there's anything with that I wonder yeah, I've seen a picture of the car afterwards.
Speaker 3:I don't think they were mistaken.
Speaker 2:That's got to be some ghetto, low budget place that has that kind of budget for this kind of car yeah right in the early morning hours of October 24th 2002, muhammad and Malvo were found sleeping in their car that 1990 Chevy Caprice at a rest stop in Maryland. They were arrested without incident. Inside the car, authorities discovered a Bushmaster .223 caliber rifle and a bipod. Authorities also discovered a makeshift sniper's nest in the trunk, complete with a hole drilled through the body of the car near the license plate, which allowed the snipers to shoot with precision while remaining hidden.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was actually kind of slick that they did that.
Speaker 2:Oh my.
Speaker 1:God, yeah, you know, I mean because there's no way Like. I'm sure I mean maybe people took notice, but if it's an old beat-up car here's like, oh, it's rusted, it's just a piece of shit car and who cares?
Speaker 2:but they, they could do this without. They could do all these shootings, all this, everything without ever needing to get out of the car. The only thing that got them out of the car was to drop hints for the police. They dropped a tarot card, they dropped the letter, I mean.
Speaker 3:Otherwise, they can just hang out in that car all day I don't, yeah, like I still don't understand the magazine, like that's something important, I agree yeah, look, I agree with you, and if like, if it yeah, if it wasn't for, like, the fingerprints on that, these guys could have still been out there today I mean eventually.
Speaker 2:Eventually, you would have been caught, maybe, but it could have went on a lot longer the magazine is what threw it for for them, like once they were able to link those fingerprints on that man, on that magazine.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes and it wasn't something like it was a magazine to to a rifle, like if it was something um, like random that could have been dropped there, like you know, like a cigarette butter, they wouldn't even have thought twice about checking it out, but it was a whole magazine to a weapon.
Speaker 1:Back to what I was talking about. Early on, there was a childhood friend of this, uh, john Muhammad Robert Holmes, who called into that tip line and gave his name and said you might want to look at him, and it slipped through the cracks. They could have had their eyes on John Muhammad much earlier. I think it was after like the first two or three more I forget what the number was but because they were so overwhelmed with tips and people calling in and actually saying no, I'm the killer we're doing, you know that type of stuff, right it slipped through the cracks and they didn't even look at the guy.
Speaker 2:Now that was Robert Holmes, not to be confused with-.
Speaker 1:John Holmes or.
Speaker 2:Rupert Holmes who's that, Rupert Holmes? Pina Colada song.
Speaker 1:Also Pina colada was, uh, jimmy buffett, nope wrong you're damn wrong you're way god damn wrong.
Speaker 3:I'm way off so yeah, him, him as well. That was on the b side, but that's a good team did you?
Speaker 2:him is so great. Did you see the um? So when they caught this, I mean there's, there's still pictures, there's still all kinds of shit out there from when they found these guys. So I happen to be a fan of, you know, staying within the lines of a parking lot, you know, right. So a parking space, his car was parked.
Speaker 2:It was basically taking up a spot and a half like they were over the line I hate that so, like dude, if you're gonna be committing things, I think is where you're going right, man, like if you want to stay inconspicuous, don't park like an asshole that somebody's going to complain about the car or some policeman's going to knock on your window saying, hey man, you know, could you? I noticed your car because it's parked in two spots, like what the fuck is wrong with you yeah, that's dude, bad move very poor planning also muhammad was.
Speaker 3:He was. He was very militant like he was in the army, but he was very against the system the government. Everything was wrong with what the United States stood for, and this is a lot of stuff. He was telling them all, though.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to stay in your parking lines.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is the way we can get back your parking lines don't mean shit to me. Yeah, after coming out of the military he was very bitter. He had said that some things happened when he was in serving but nobody really could corroborate what he was saying. But also these guys were tied to some stuff that happened across the country. So they came from like Seattle area and across the country and it was all tied to Muhammad's ex-wife, mildred, who was in the DC area Ultimately.
Speaker 2:so I'd seen that too, and in fact I don't know if I cover it. But no, in fact I don't, I left that out.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it does end up coming out that his wife was actually initially the focus, but he wanted to distract everybody by just shooting randos.
Speaker 1:Right, cause he knew she was in Arizona. This one was crazy. There was a guy in a parking lot changing his tire, like in a mall parking lot, and they came over and approached him. They're like, hey, how's it going, do you need help? And he was like no, I'm good. And the guy is retelling the story, so obviously he survived the attack.
Speaker 1:But I guess the teenager in Alville came around, was kind of like ducking down around the car and he's like, hey, what are you doing over there? And when he came around he smiled at him and shot him and the bullet went through his neck and exited out his shoulder. He fell down and played dead. He was like, oh, I thought I got hit with like a paintball gun, but I wasn't sure. The kid went in, took his wallet, took a bunch of stuff and fled. The guy got up, ran to like a gas station or something called 9-1-1 and survived. Luckily the bullet hit no major arteries, obviously.
Speaker 1:Sure he survived, but um, they were able to to tie this to these guys later on. And then there was a robbery in alabama where a lady was I think it was a lady that worked there was shot and killed and another guy was injured and they did rob the place and took money and different things. But initially they didn't want to tie this to these guys Cause they were like, well, they don't ever steal anything, they're just basically senseless killings, but they're not stealing anything. But they did get fingerprints from Malvo there as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yep, there as well. Yeah so yep, I think. Yeah, in fact, I think that's right. That's where they, that's how they were able to tie that back to that magazine right and I'm not talking a periodical periodical yeah, but also with the magazine, the clip, whatever you would like to call it for, the gun.
Speaker 3:Um, when they started questioning muhammad's wife, like she was one to like she was like a canary uh, she was like saying about how abusive, like physically, mentally, uh wasn't very good with the kids. She don't know where he's at, like he disappeared. And she was living in fear the whole time, as well, because she knew.
Speaker 2:Bitches man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she knew he was on, like he was coming for her. He told her, like I'm going to kill you, I'm going to find you and kill you. But she had moved there to try to get away from him.
Speaker 3:And obviously he tracked anyhow, yeah, and the um the bipod that they found with the 223 caliber rifle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it now identifies as a gun holder. Oh, doesn't want to be called a bipod. Oh, I see, I was wondering about that, yeah I thought matt knew something I didn't know bipodual nice, I can go to any bathroom at once yeah
Speaker 2:yeah, the legal proceedings that followed were closely watched by the nation. John muhammad was tried first. The prosecution presented evidence of muhammad's meticulous planning and his control over malvo, arguing that he was the mastermind behind the attacks. The dc sniper attacks were all a part of muhammad's threephase plan. Phase one was to shoot and kill six white people per day for 30 days in the DC area. However, heavy traffic and lack of clear shots prevented this.
Speaker 2:Phase two was to shoot and kill a pregnant woman and her unborn baby, then shoot and kill a police officer. Improvised explosive devices would be planted in advance at the officer's funeral, then go off when many fellow officers would have come to pay their respects. More bombs would then be set to go off when ambulances would have arrived. Phase three was to use the tragedies from phases one and two to extort money from the government, travel to canada and use the money to recruit and train other orphaned boys like malvo to perform the same phases in other parts of the country so this guy's like the joker man, he's got like yeah, he wants to franchise this shit.
Speaker 1:They're gonna say, like hitler yeah, well, that too like recruiting, yeah, young malvo's what I was gonna compare him to was a little bit like, uh like, charles manson as well sure he has a cult of one that's exactly.
Speaker 2:That's the first one thing I thought of.
Speaker 1:Yeah but I'm thinking I like the joker walking away from the hospital, like hitting that button, trying to, you know in, uh, the dark night, I think it was and this guy's just like, not only is he planning on killing people, but then killing more people when you're there, like paying your respects, yep and uh, yeah, it's his so that's kind of fucked up, not written, not kind of it's real fucked up.
Speaker 2:So shoot a police officer, then have bombs planted when all the other cops come to show their respects, which they do, and then have additional layers of bombs go off when the ambulances show up to to get the the already exploded cops out of there.
Speaker 3:Like it's just this chain reaction madness, but it's just showing, like you said, madness, that this guy is technically crazy because none of this stuff in real life could even possibly be close to happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how could you, how could you do that?
Speaker 3:Yes, In his mind he's thinking all this crazy shit, but it would never. You can place bombs well in advance of stuff. You could, but for him to even. Him and Malva are going to be sitting there making up IEDs something that takes you know that you have to hire somebody in the middle of Afghanistan to do for you you know, that would take some training.
Speaker 1:Well, he was in the military. You wonder too if, like at these events, if they had like bomb sniffing dog, would they even think of that?
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:That it would be a risk.
Speaker 2:Who thinks to take a bomb sniffing dog to a cop's funeral?
Speaker 3:Yeah, they might, though today yeah, you never know.
Speaker 1:I mean there's so many crazy people and sick people.
Speaker 2:I wonder if it was this that helped to make that happen. I mean so today is 22 years later, right.
Speaker 3:When I go to work. I mean they do have like random dog sniffings every once in a while and like they do stuff on your crotch, your crotch and your fingerprints. No, they'll like do a thing. Sometimes they wipe your, your fingerprints, to see if you were dealing with. They can tell explosives or any, even like a brass, even if you had bullets or something like that, because there's been people that, oh, I went hunting the other day Like I, you know, they're like we didn't shower or anything.
Speaker 2:The guys you know nasty but smells like deer piss and cocaine.
Speaker 1:Well, that happened to a friend of mine that drives a delivery vehicle. He was going down to uh, I think it was TMI. They had like open and operating, they would scan your vehicle before they'd go in. They'd they'd wipe it down and check underneath and his pop for explosives. Well, here it was from, because it's farmland around there and driving through the, the farm areas they would, there would be like uh, remnants from explosives.
Speaker 3:I guess they'd use to, you know for the land, for the land to make it more fertile and it got on his truck.
Speaker 1:So they had to, like, put his truck aside and search it and do all kind of like really look into it.
Speaker 2:So that's thanks to Oklahoma City. Yeah, after. The bombing.
Speaker 3:Makes sense. Damn, I'm afraid for all the firework remnants on my vehicle from the fireworks displays in our neighborhood.
Speaker 1:That was my son Crazy my damn son and his friends All firework-y.
Speaker 2:Witnesses testified about the fear and chaos the attacks caused, and the jury was shown the modified vehicle used in the crimes. Convicted of capital murder in Virginia, Muhammad was sentenced to death and was executed by lethal injection in 2009. Lee Malvo, being only 17 at the time of the crimes, was initially sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Over the years, Malvo's sentence has been the subject of legal challenges, particularly given the Supreme Court's evolving stance on life sentences for juveniles. He remains in prison, currently awaiting a resentencing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I saw he was up for parole, like in 2022 maybe and they denied it Denied. I don't know, so he's probably what like late 30s by now.
Speaker 2:So 24,. This is 20 years ago. He was 17,.
Speaker 1:He's late 30s for sure. Yeah, like 37, 38, so he'll probably never get out.
Speaker 3:See, that's a whole thing too, with our judicial system, with, uh, psychologists, things like that. Like he was still a child who went through like a very hard childhood. You're talking 16, 17, probably 16 going into 17, when a lot of these murders are happening, right, or he was 17.
Speaker 1:I think he might already been 17, but he's only 17. Yeah, he's only. Yeah, 17 again, thank you kip winger.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you, you're the man, but I I'm just saying like I I don't think he was. I think this guy influenced him so much that I know you people are like you know what you're doing as a 17 year old, but maybe his whole childhood was so screwed up that there's I. I don't think you put him out in in society after being able to pull the trigger on however many people, but this guy's not getting out.
Speaker 2:You know there's no chance, At least I hope he's out there.
Speaker 3:You know, like shoveling stuff, or at least you know cleaning up the highways or something, maybe, maybe picking up bullet casings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, something, dropping magazines maybe picking up bullet casings, yeah something dropping magazines, maybe, like, uh, like are you saying maybe because he's like a kid, because he technically you're under 18, you're a kid. That?
Speaker 2:he's fucking I can't stand this I can't look, look you have. I should say we have numbers assigned to when everyone was all of a sudden considered an adult.
Speaker 2:So if 18 magical, yeah, like there's this magical number that it's 18. Fuck, no, that's not even remotely true. Not even remotely true. And that number just keeps getting pushed back and back and back and back Thanks to helicopter parents, shit parents, who don't let their kids fail or fall or do anything, just keep boosting them up. Conversely, you got people that grow up hard blue collar lives. You got people that grow up hard blue collar lives. You got guys that want to go into the military as soon as they possibly can. You got farmers like you have laborers that go to work as soon as they possibly drop out of school to go do it Like they're a hell of a lot more of an adult than a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:But if I was a defense attorney, would Malvo have done any of this without the influence of Sean Muhammad?
Speaker 1:Well, look at the manson girls. Like some of them got off and got out, you know, because it was the same type thing yeah, after I mean it took a long. It took a long time, but uh, they're back in society, a few of them, I mean I know there's still a few that aren't, but they obviously this guy was shooting people point blank range and, uh, the one murder and I know I think he's the one that pulled the trigger on everything.
Speaker 1:Right, if I'm not mistaken mova was yeah, he's the one that pulled the trigger on everything Right.
Speaker 3:If I'm not mistaken, mova was yeah, he was the one shooting out of the back, right, but Muhammad was the one telling him what to do Right, very much like Manson.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm definitely not, matt and anyone. And Dave, I'm not going to disagree that this guy, at a relatively formative age, was taking the advice and looking up to this guy was taking the advice and looking up to this guy certainly again as a would-be father figure and a mentor like for sure. That's for goddamn sure, true, absolutely true.
Speaker 1:Maybe we need like an island to send these kids.
Speaker 2:We had one way back in the day. It was called Australia.
Speaker 3:Yeah, australia, that's where all the English people went.
Speaker 2:What did they call?
Speaker 1:that it was something colony.
Speaker 3:Outback.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, and that's how it started, you're right.
Speaker 3:Kangaroo town.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kangaroo court. Go ahead, matt. I'm sorry I cut you off no, um, it's just.
Speaker 3:I think that Malvo would have never. I don't think any of this would have happened if he wasn't with Muhammad. And and if you would have, if there's this guy telling you to shoot me he's going to shoot him, yeah. I said no.
Speaker 2:So let's not forget that this guy had converted to Islam in 2001, march of 2001. So this is six months or so before 9-11., and now it's a year and a half later. So I mean, look, not for nothing. I mean, the teachings of Islam, or or at least the way that the radicals were interpreting that, were basically you got to kill Western civilization, that's what you need to do, which is, I mean, hey man, if that's what the radicals are teaching, well, there it goes.
Speaker 1:Right, and this guy was a radical, for sure, not like a BMX guy. He was doing like 360s and kickflips.
Speaker 2:Yeah Crew Mavo. Yeah, that's all the fuck I got hey guys, can you?
Speaker 1:wrap it up. Oh, I guess it's about that time. It sure is. Yeah, make sure you stick around for the uh, the little interview with sean. Some cool tidbits in there and he's got a wild story for sure for sure about all this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's very interesting. I don't know what it went as far as he he said it did. I didn't know all that.
Speaker 2:That was fun to hear I mean, matt, you know I'm looking, I'm thinking through some stuff here and I remember you know you were talking about, you know businesses and uh, you know damn it. You know, as long as you're not going to get shot, you got to come to work today, american greed, so for sure there was a I mean, there was a significant economic impact on this. Uh, however, schools still remained open. They just were put on high alert, like again that David mentioned. You know, no, no, going outside for recess, you got to stay inside.
Speaker 3:You still got to get dropped off and picked up during the day, but no, but yeah, like just a couple of years ago when, when COVID happened, when COVID hit, I remember I was at work and they said everybody needs to go home. There's some kind of. They didn't understand the whole thing, but they were like there's this virus, um, it's affecting people. We want everybody to go home.
Speaker 3:So everybody fleed, like they left and let two hours later like I guess there was calls from you know, upper high above yeah, high above saying you need to get these people back like I don't know what's going on, tell them to put something over their face and come back to work.
Speaker 1:Yep there was a lot, a lot of like both extremes. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Yes, but if, if I'm in an area where people are getting shot like, would I send my kids to school? Probably not Would I be looking at like getting excited to get gas to go to work? No, probably not. I can dig that.
Speaker 1:I mean, it was probably people that wanted to start electric cars. They, they were like if we make it dangerous to the gas stations, I would have been looking at those guys, but now they'll call off school for like half inch of snow, and back then they were sending them Because I was trying to think when was that change where now they'll call off school for anything?
Speaker 2:They'll call off school if the weatherman says it and it doesn't even happen. It doesn't happen.
Speaker 1:They call off if it's too hot.
Speaker 2:There was one school that closed because the temperatures were too hot. But what's?
Speaker 3:the vacation of america. Yeah, well, it's not just that, it's just people are so happy. That's true, because imagine the kids goes to school like, passes out, hits his head, uh, has to go to the hospital. Then the parents are suing the school district because you sent our kids to school and the air condition wasn't working and my kid passed out, right, so he's got to cover all bases, but yeah this is a wild one I've been.
Speaker 1:I picked this one because I wanted to do this for a while, because of sean. Just because I remember him telling me that story, I'm like you know what? That would be a cool one to cover.
Speaker 1:Actually, our buddy juice too, has a friend that was uh either I forget if the friend was an investigator or something like that or something with the fbi or some something along those lines. So there's a lot of people I I know that were bringing this up when we first started on the podcast, but I enjoyed that, guys, good job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Thanks everybody.
Speaker 1:All right, so we're here with Sean. Sean, what's going on?
Speaker 5:Hey, what's going on?
Speaker 1:Dave, yeah, good. Good, we're here with Zap and Matt as well, so Sean's a fan of the show and you were down there during all this, during the dc sniper beltway shootings, correct?
Speaker 5:yeah, yeah, I was. Actually I was living in florida but I was up. I'm a bow hunter, diehard bow hunter. So I was up uh for a week doing, uh, some bow hunting in maryland. That's where I originally am from and, ironically, where the um the dc sniper first uh in the dc area took place was right in my, basically my backyard, where I grew up.
Speaker 2:That's really close to home, man, that's. That's gotta be something when you you know for a claim to fame like that, that's yikes.
Speaker 5:Oh, it gets worse. I mean it was, uh, it was crazy, Like so the first person I think that got shot in DC area was at this gas station. That was real close. That was the one I went to every day. Unfortunately, I think that lady died, I think by, I think, a minivan or something. And then, um, so she got shot. And the next person I think was a uh, I think it was a bus driver, like a Metro bus driver, and that was right up the street, uh, from that gas station, less than I mean quarter of a mile, and uh, so I mean it was right in my backyard. That gas station, literally from the house I grew up in Rockville, Maryland, was probably a mile from my house. So. And then I'm not sure where the next shooting took place, but then another one had taken place at the dealership. A guy cut in the grass behind the dealership I actually worked at for five years I was, I was a mechanic there and he was cutting the grass. He got shot. So it hit close to home for sure.
Speaker 3:When is the point that it started to get alarming to the people that lived in that area? Was it like the second, third shooting, where the news was kind of letting it be known that these shootings were taking place in this specific area? Were you like, oh, shoot, something's going on. Or were you kind of like, oh yeah, okay, for sure Did. Were you like, oh, shoot something's going on. Or were you kind of like, oh yeah.
Speaker 5:OK For sure. Like I would say, probably within the third shooting, because I think the first two happened pretty. I think they were a day apart or very close, but definitely what ended up happening, I think by the third shooting everybody was like on high alert that.
Speaker 5:I saw I mean you would go to the gas station and it was crazy. They started putting tarps up in front of the gas stations, like on main roadways. People getting gas like were afraid to tell. They literally were crouching down putting their gas in their car, like just trying to stay low. It was the craziest thing. The reason it shook me pretty bad was I actually got back to Florida the week. So I think this took place about two weeks. In the first week I was there. The second week I wasn't.
Speaker 5:I got a call actually from the FBI at my house in Florida and they wanted to know if anyone could verify my whereabouts. They knew I don't know how they knew, but they knew that I was up there. They knew that I was leaving in the morning and my dad had a white work van. He's an electrician for a company and he had a white work van. They knew it was leaving every morning. So they called.
Speaker 5:You know I spoke with the FBI agent and they just wanted to know if anyone could verify my whereabouts up there while I was there. So there, I mean they were on the. They were. They were following every lead they could, I'm sure, but it was just ironic that they had called me and I just said no, nobody can really verify my whereabouts. It's just, you know, I was going out in the morning, and rightfully so. I mean we were dressed in camo and stuff. So they probably were. You know, I probably thought maybe they had the guy white band leaving early in the morning, not coming back till late at night dressed in camo I morning, not coming back till late at night dressed in camo.
Speaker 2:I mean we had those, but you know the average person probably didn't know what we had in our boat cases. You know, that is crazy, like that is some big brother shit right there, like that's unbelievable. But you know, as we've gone through this story and we've put this all together, they for damn sure we're looking for at one point, uh, a white yeah the white van was the first to be reported white box truck, anything like that.
Speaker 2:And here you are just minding your own business, coming up north again, coming back home to go of all things hunting.
Speaker 5:You know, geez, I mean god you're, you're checking every box for these guys oh yeah, I'm sure they thought when they called me they're like we got the dude. And then they, probably because it kept going on uh past. You know, when I had gone back, I'm sure they looked at my flight plan and all and stuff like that, and maybe even I mean I don't know if they pulled video footage at the airport. But I mean he talked to me and he was very cordial and very nice and I didn't even ask him like how he got my number or how they got in contact with me, but they did contact my dad too and they spoke with him, contacted me, but they did contact my dad too and they spoke with him. So they probably saw that I was out of town. But I'm sure they had. I would think they were probably watching us.
Speaker 5:But as the shootings went on, they I'm sure we, you know, uh, we got off their list and stuff and it was. It was a scary time, I know. This happened like 20 years ago and and the proximity of all those shootings was just crazy, like that. I had been to all those places, actually worked there. It was just a. It was a weird thing, you know, and and it's nothing I I'm definitely not proud of it's just that's what happened, you know that's scary.
Speaker 2:That's where you were. Yeah, my gosh, that's wild like people remember where they were when you know the challenger exploded, or when you know 9-11 happened or you name it. Yeah, this is one of those things, especially for you, man, where you could remember exactly where you were because, for Christ's sake, you were being contacted by the FBI. Like man, it's. It's funny when you say I don't know how they got my number. Come on, man, they can find the number they get. They can find it.
Speaker 5:You know, gosh, it was. I'll be honest with you. Even driving like going from our location where my dad was living to where we went hunting in Poolsville, maryland, it was just that drive alone was kind of like a little nerve wracking. I mean, you're like man, people are just getting whacked left and right like by a sniper.
Speaker 1:And you drive down the road and you're looking off into like I don't know, parking lots, thinking damn man, somebody's going to shoot me too. You know, I couldn't imagine. I mean, it's just got to be frightening to go anywhere, to live during all that in that area and like how big of an area like DC, the surrounding areas, is it like 50 mile, a hundred mile range?
Speaker 5:So I grew up in what was called. It was an outskirt of Rockville called Aspen Hill and that's where the first shooting took place. Growing up, my dad had a sweeping company like parking lot sweeping company and the parking lot across the street was a huge parking lot. It was called Aspen Hill Shopping Center, had a giant there and then. And so in my mind I'm thinking, man, that guy probably like was in this parking lot and shot, shot, you know, that lady across the street.
Speaker 5:And ironically that wasn't the first person to die at that gas station. When I was a kid another, uh, a teenager had gotten shot there by the police. Uh, they had like a mini riot going on there and they shot this guy, dave Bain Uh, he had a baseball bat and I guess they were uh off duty cop came out of the gas station and saw him and told him to drop it. He didn't drop it. He ended up shooting him and the bullet, I guess, ricocheted off his elbow or something and went in him and killed him. So that gas station was no stranger to death.
Speaker 5:But man it was just to answer your question, dave. I think like so. Where I live, aspen Hill, I was actually born in DC but grew up in Rockville, maryland. I. I was actually born in DC but grew up in Rockville, maryland. I would say I could be in DC, probably within from my house. I could be in DC and within 15, 20 minutes, something like that, that's how close it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that sounds about right, Like that whole metroplex around there is significant. I mean understand it's DC right, Like the probably one of the largest employing cities. Just because of the federal government alone, let alone anything else that's tied to that and people there that are trying to, you know, do services for the federal government, it just goes and goes and goes from there. So between there I mean Arlington, right across the river you got again the, the Rockville right up North. I mean it's a huge Metroplex.
Speaker 1:So put it in perspective. From like where we're at, it would be like if Harrisburg is the capital of the country, like if you're in York, Lancaster or even farther out that you'd be worried about. Like is this where these shootings were occurring in that area, or is it even like that's a 30 mile range? Is it like a 50 mile range, like around DC, would you say, or even bigger?
Speaker 5:I kind of think, dave, just the terror, the terror shock, probably because it stretched out into Virginia. Remember, at the end there I got to think it probably stretched, you know, 100 miles. People were probably scared, you know. I mean it's just because of the sheer terror of it. You imagine you're just standing at a pump and all of a sudden you get shot, or even being the person next to you gets shot or something. It was crazy. Or even being the person next to you gets shot or something. It was crazy, like I mean I'm not exaggerating when I say I would drive by those gas stations, some of them, and people were literally crouched down filling their fuel To see something like that. It's just a mind shock. You know, you're like man, this is just crazy. What's going on, you know? And every day I would come back from hunting because we'd stay out in the woods all day and we'd come back at night We'd turn on the news and we're like damn, another person died. You know, it's like this is not stopping.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 5:How many people were shot and killed the time that you were there, for the one week or two weeks? So I'm pretty sure I could be wrong, but I would say four to five people were killed the week, just the first week I was there. I know the lady at the gas station, the metro driver, I think there was a lady up at this place called Seizure World, which was only like two miles down the road from the first two shots. And then I think Wait wait, wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 2:Where was she at Seizure World? Well-, Like you know, like epilepsy, Okay, so it's actually called leisure world. It's a retirement community, but you grew up in that area. I heard seizure, not leisure.
Speaker 5:My bad, my bad no, you caught me I know he did say seizure world.
Speaker 3:I think that's what they called it as kids is what he was saying. Uh, instead of calling it leisure, because it was for like a bunch of old-timey people.
Speaker 2:They called it seizure. That's awesome.
Speaker 5:I picked up what you were putting down there.
Speaker 3:I got it.
Speaker 5:Isn't it funny how these things stick with. You. Call like an area, a certain name, and then it sticks with you and then, here I am. I'm 50 years old now and I'm still calling it seizure world, Seizure world.
Speaker 1:That's great.
Speaker 5:I'm sure they changed it to that name by now.
Speaker 5:I'm sure. But it's a huge retirement community with a grocery store out in front of it, basically on Georgia Avenue there, and so they call it. You know it was Leisure World, but I call it Leisure World because that's what we called it growing up and it just stuck. That's awesome. But then I think that the shootings actually moved into virginia as the is the second week came on. But they caught I think they caught those two guys, uh um over in, uh up in frederick, above frederick maryland, so they had worked their way back, you know yeah, I think it was like at a rest stop or something like up in maryland.
Speaker 1:But yeah, sean, that was awesome man and I remember you telling me that story and I couldn't remember exactly what it was, but along the lines of like they were kind of looking at you, um, or somebody. I couldn't remember if it was you or something or somebody else that you knew as a suspect and that's gotta be frightening. But uh, I remembered in the news at the time, but obviously I wasn't living down there and none of us were, as far as I know. Definitely a scary time, man.
Speaker 5:How did it affect you guys Like I mean cause I know that's been down into Bethesda and stuff and Frederick and whatnot how did it affect you guys up here, like it's almost an hour and a half, two hour drive from there? Did it affect you guys living up here? Were you ever concerned that it would? It would come up this way.
Speaker 2:I mean. So at the time the I didn't move into. Not move into, but my professional career at the time didn't take me into the DC area until a few years later. So at that time I was definitely doing some stuff in Philadelphia. And there was at that time, you know for damn sure, like there was, I would spend basically the falls of any number of years just working in Philly. And there was, for damn sure, the concern that oh okay, big city shootings, all right, when's it going to? What city is going to be next? Is it going to move to Philly? Is it going to move to you name it? So that was certainly a concern, at least you know, for me at the time, and I remember seeing this on the news. I mean I almost vividly remember this.
Speaker 1:I wasn't necessarily totally worried that they were going to come to this area. I was up in the Harrisburg area at the time but in the back of my head I was thinking that's not that far away. If they are mobile and obviously they are they're moving around. That they could start traveling and I don't know. I wasn't really in my day-to-day life worried about it.
Speaker 3:But in the back of your head. I think you're always thinking it's a possibility. That's true, like in the back, I mean.
Speaker 2:I just didn't like going to work, so I was like looking for any excuse to call, so I'd be like I don't think I'll be making it in today, boss, really, really high alert here. Just what's going like? You just now have the, the department of homeland security, all coming together. You have all of this, all of these things anti-terrorism, uh that are just coming to light and, just you know, in their infancy stages here. So you start hearing about sniping and people getting mass killed.
Speaker 3:Like yeah, man, the first thing you think of is a terrorist I just don't understand if you were directly in that area and like these people were just dropping like flies at a gas station, like you were saying, to like sit there and and like squat down or try to get in a position where you can't be shot as easily, just to get gas to like function, I don't think I would be able. One thing that scares me is death, so so I don't think I would be able to. Even I would probably be driving, like you know, an hour outside of the city just to gas up or maybe get like a bunch of like gas cans or something, or just stay out from the outside of like either be in my car and to where I need to be, but I I couldn't imagine being in that area at that time yeah, that's what.
Speaker 1:Uh, we wanted to kind of get that perspective because we weren't down around there, but definitely, since you you were and I knew you had that cool story, I wanted to get your input on it. So I appreciate it, sean.
Speaker 5:Yeah, no problem, guys. If you got any more questions on it, I'll tell you what I know, man. But the terror, the terror on that was just. It was incredible, for sure.
Speaker 1:We'll definitely be hitting you up in the future on a vintage gaming review, so stay tuned for that Stay tuned. All right, sean brother. We appreciate it. Man, thanks a lot.
Speaker 5:All right guys have a good one. Thanks, sean, thanks Sean Later.
Speaker 1:Bye-bye, so we better wrap this up before I get sniped. You guys got anything else in closing? I got nothing. No, I'm good. All right, brothers, we hope you're enjoying the podcast, and I guess that's it for now, so we'll catch you where.
Speaker 2:On the flip side If we don't see you sooner, we'll see you later. Peace.
Speaker 3:Thanks for hanging out in the old dirty basement. If you dig our theme music, like we do, check out the Tsunami Experiment Find them on Facebook. Their music is available streaming on Spotify and Apple and where great music is available.
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