Ol' Dirty Basement: True Crime and Vintage Movie Reviews

Surviving Three Mile Island: Mothers' Tales of Fear, Community, and Resilience in 1979

Dave, Matt and Zap Season 2 Episode 49

"Send us a Fan Mail Text Message"

What would you do if your job was on the line, but your safety was at risk? This episode of the Ol' Dirty Basement podcast is a heartfelt journey into the personal experiences of our mothers—Sharon, Rita, and Rose—during the Three Mile Island disaster of 1979. Sharon takes us back to her days at the Red Barn restaurant, where she made a gut-wrenching decision to leave despite her boss's stern warnings. Listen to these incredible women share their gripping stories of fear, confusion, and the indomitable spirit of a community in crisis.

Unravel the complex web of public perception surrounding nuclear power in the late '70s. We reflect on the influence of media portrayals, like "The China Syndrome," and discuss how our understanding of radioactivity was shaped by proximity to places like Three Mile Island and Los Alamos. Personal anecdotes bring to life the mixed reactions during the evacuation—some fled immediately, while others grappled with uncertainty. Our mothers recount the varying neighborhood responses, the eerie quiet of deserted streets, and the overwhelming anxiety fueled by mixed signals from officials.

The conversation doesn't just stop at the moment of crisis. We delve into the long-term health concerns and fears of radiation exposure that haunted the Harrisburg community. As we reminisce, lighter moments surface, offering a nostalgic look at local dining spots and vintage cinema. From the chaos of evacuation to the poignant return home, this episode is a tribute to the resilience and enduring spirit of those who lived through one of the most significant nuclear incidents in American history. Join us for a deeply personal and historical exploration of the Three Mile Island disaster, filled with emotion, reflection, and a touch of nostalgia.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to a very special episode of the Old Dirty Basement podcast. Today we are privileged to bring you a unique perspective on the TMI disaster. Our host mothers, sharon Rose and Rita, join us to share their personal stories and vivid memories from those harrowing days. As mothers of Dave, matt and Zap, they witness firsthand the fear, uncertainty and resilience that defined that era. Uncertainty and resilience that define that era. Join us as we journey back in time through their eyes to understand the impact of the TMI disaster on their lives and the community. Stay tuned for an emotional and insightful episode.

Speaker 2:

This is the old, dirty basement Home to debauchery, madness, murder and mayhem. A terror-filled train ride deep into the depths of the devil's den.

Speaker 3:

With a little bit of humor history and copious consciousness.

Speaker 4:

I'm your announcer, shallow.

Speaker 2:

Throat. Your hosts are Dave, matt and Zap. I love you, matthew McConaughey. All right, all right, all right.

Speaker 5:

Hey, this is Dave, matt and Zap, and welcome to the old, dirty basement.

Speaker 3:

Where every week we cover a true crime, murder or compelling story so sit back, relax and comprehend.

Speaker 5:

Hello everyone and welcome to a special edition of the old, dirty basement. I am matt. With me always is dave and zap, and we have three special guests today indeed, indeed, we have all of our mothers us.

Speaker 4:

So you may or may not remember our last episode. We covered the soup-to-nuts story of the incident at Three Mile Island in Pennsylvania. Today with us we have the three ladies that birthed us and lived through it and are here to tell their tale. So this is really exciting. Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize to all of our mothers here. That was not a satanic ritual song that opened this up. Didn't want you to be scared about that.

Speaker 5:

Sorry about Shallow Throat. He's a good gentleman. He goes to church.

Speaker 3:

He's a good guy. No, he is a good guy.

Speaker 5:

It's just part of the beginning of the show. It has nothing to do with anything.

Speaker 3:

That's right, and if Matt and I sound a little off, we're on like mobile mics, so we might be a little lower.

Speaker 5:

Yes, we have our moms on the equipment.

Speaker 3:

We got six mics going here, yeah, so why don't we introduce everybody? I'll introduce first my mom Sharon. How's it going, sharon? First my mom Sharon. How's it going, sharon?

Speaker 7:

Good.

Speaker 4:

All right, I'll introduce my mom Rita. How's it going?

Speaker 8:

Well, thank you.

Speaker 4:

Aw, thanks for being here, Ma.

Speaker 5:

I guess I'll follow suit and introduce my mom. Rose, how are you today? I'm doing well, thank you, and it's fun and glad. I'm very glad to be here with all of you. Have any of you guys ever experienced anything like this? Do you know this is going to be?

Speaker 4:

worldwide yeah, worldwide. This will be available for the entire internet listening and podcast listening public, which dominates the whole globe.

Speaker 5:

I don't know if you ladies knew this. We're very big in Ghana.

Speaker 3:

We were number one in Ghana for a week, absolutely, it's a country.

Speaker 4:

That's a. Thing.

Speaker 3:

For sure. So Rose and Sharon were on a phone call before, but, rita, this is your first time hanging out with with us on the podcast, so welcome and we're happy you're here. Thank, you glad to be here, yeah, so why don't we get into it zap yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4:

So again, you know we're we. Just to remind everyone, this is a follow-up, this is a special edition of of, uh well, the having lived through the incident at three mile island, which, having lived through the incident at Three Mile Island, which happened in the wee hours of the morning on Wednesday March 28th 1979. So you know, all of you, or each of you, you know one by one, just to get things off, just to get the listeners to maybe know a little more about you, a little about your history. So, back in March of 1979, were you working for an employer at the time and, if so, who was your employer? Conversely, might you instead have been a stay-at-home mom, sharon? Why don't we start with you?

Speaker 7:

Okay, I was working at Red Barton restaurants on Derry Street. Oh, Red Barton. Yeah, I was working third shift, 3 am to 11.

Speaker 4:

Oh my gosh, I remember that place.

Speaker 7:

And we were listening to the radio when we heard about Three Mile Island. Wow. I called my boss right away and told him I'm leaving 11 o'clock when my shift's done, I'm leaving, I'm getting out of here. He said you leave, you're fired. I left.

Speaker 5:

Really, they used that at a time where they didn't know Wow.

Speaker 4:

Wow, see, now, that's a shame, because I remember that that's right by that's Catty Corner to St Catharines, wasn't?

Speaker 3:

it. Yep, it was a Payless shoe place there as well.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that Hell.

Speaker 3:

I went to birthday parties there I had birthday parties there.

Speaker 4:

I remember that's awesome.

Speaker 5:

They had great sausage biscuits Cause I have parties there, yeah, no that was if you had a birthday party at red barn.

Speaker 4:

You were baller.

Speaker 5:

That's right For sure so it was not there.

Speaker 4:

You said look, I'm getting out of here. I'm working through my shift, but I'm getting the hell out of Dodge.

Speaker 7:

I said somebody better be here at 11 AM or I'm closing. Nobody came. So I closed, said goodbye, no, no more job for you nobody was there, I just left, I closed every, sent everybody home how was it good?

Speaker 4:

I say good for you.

Speaker 7:

You probably chose wisely yeah, and then I, when we, when we finally went away, came home, I had all these answer machine from him asking me to come back, but I didn't. I actually went down the channel. I don't know if you remember that place yeah, channel, that was like a heckinger's.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, like home depot precursor to home depot. Yep, I went down to Channel. I don't know if you remember that place.

Speaker 7:

Yeah Channel. That was like a Hechinger's yeah or like Home Depot the precursor to Home Depot Yep. I went down there and worked and then eventually I got a job at Highmark.

Speaker 4:

Nice, that's great. Wow, dear Rose. Yes, march of 1979. Where were you working? Were you a stay-at-home? Mom is a working full-time job. So were you working at home or were you working for an employer?

Speaker 6:

I worked for the us department of agriculture in the federal building downtown on walnut and third street and that's downtown Harrisburg. What did I say?

Speaker 5:

You said downtown I'm just letting everybody Downtown Harrisburg Pennsylvania.

Speaker 6:

Anyway, I had gone to Dolphin Deposit, the old bank remember Dolphin Deposit Bank, oh, dolphin Deposit. And it was at the time when we didn't have direct deposit yet. So I had that payroll check in my hand and all of a sudden there was a buzz in that bank about something very bad had happened at Three Mile Island. And so I go back to the office and that was a buzz too. I tried calling Matthew's dad. George Couldn't get a hold of him. The phones were jammed. Tried calling my babysitter with the kids. Matthew at the time was three years old, he had just turned three in January, and Kimberly, my daughter, was six months old.

Speaker 6:

And I remember saying to my boss I said I can't get a hold of anybody, I think I have to go. Oh, no, no, no, no. We've got to get this newsletter out to the farmers and the ranchers. Our producers need to know this new program. We've got to get it out. And I'm like, oh dear. I mean I didn't know what to do and I kept trying to call anybody that I could Couldn't get a hold of anybody. We did have the radio on and it was just a scary thing, a scary time, because we started hearing about evacuation. They didn't even know and it was one of those things, that was the unknown, and I just remember thinking, oh my God, they're going to send my husband in one direction, the kids are going to go in another direction because we're starting to have plans on evacuation. But not to worry, not to worry. Nothing really was a problem, nothing was going on.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that would be something Before cell phones. It's hard to get ahold of everybody. So you do have that worry, I guess of. Are you going to go one way? I'm going to go another way and try to connect.

Speaker 4:

I didn't even think about that. Yeah, I got to believe that people were being pushed all over the place. So, wow, okay, so you were working downtown at the time. Okay, this is good to know. Uh, now I heard you and my mom talking earlier that you two happened to be old bus riding buddies together. Yeah, yeah yeah, so you're riding public transportation Awesome, Good for you, Ma Rita. March 28th 1979. Were you working at home or were you working for an employer?

Speaker 8:

Well, I did a little of both. I was primarily a stay-at-home mom. You were two and a half.

Speaker 4:

Thanks Ma.

Speaker 8:

And I worked every other Saturday at Pomeroy's. I was an auditor there, oh, and so actually our TV was on, but it would have had to have been Captain Kangaroo or something like that. Yeah, and did not hear anything really important other than you know, the best I can do is the best I can do, and I'm doing the best that I can. And that was Captain Kangaroo.

Speaker 4:

That's all I knew about.

Speaker 8:

Three Mile Island that day.

Speaker 4:

That's fine, that's absolutely fine. All right, I wanted to get that out just to see, just to get the groundwork. So where you were again at the time when, for arguably, not much of anyone knew about it when it went down I mean, this thing went down at whatever in the morning.

Speaker 3:

Quick question that Pomeroy's was that downtown as?

Speaker 4:

well, it's on fourth street.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I didn't even realize there was a Pomeroy's down.

Speaker 4:

Oh, fourth, and market, for sure they. They tore it down, turned into the parking lot, and then now they built Harris or the Wittig at the Wittiger.

Speaker 5:

At the Whitaker Center.

Speaker 4:

Is it? Is that what they're called there?

Speaker 5:

I think so. No, Whitaker's at third G-Man used to be there.

Speaker 4:

It's down further. I think it's Harrisburg University.

Speaker 6:

Oh, okay Maybe, but I just remember they had the best lunches there, on the second floor.

Speaker 5:

Now I picked up on something interesting. You guys were saying it's March 28, 1979.

Speaker 4:

Wednesday.

Speaker 5:

Wednesday and like you're saying tmi, I guess you just thought that was three mile island. They, they have power there. Nobody knew exactly what radiation or radioactivity or anything like controlling it. You guys just thought, hey, it's, uh, it's power yeah it's, it's lighting us up, so that's something that that I think. That that's where, like I don't know if people were afraid or there was no fear, because I don't think anybody really understood nuclear power.

Speaker 4:

I wonder, matt, if you're reading into the next question, because that, in fact, is the next question. Wow, yeah, no, no, no, no, matt, look, you and I actually, despite anyone else's dislike of it, you and I think alike a lot.

Speaker 3:

Great minds, great minds, very true.

Speaker 4:

So else's dislike of it. You and I think alike a lot great minds, great minds.

Speaker 5:

So it's like we just feed off of one another, it's like the same brain. It was interesting of what they said. Like you know, your mom was, I don't nobody really knew, it's just hey, something's going on with this nuclear power plant. Nuclear like what do we do?

Speaker 4:

and there it is well. So, with that now leaning toward, now, the nuclear age. So the first commercial nuclear power plant in the United States opened in 1958. Mom, you would have been 18 at the time With a number of additional plants opening the following decades. So do you recall the dawn and progression of what was then known as the atomic age, all the futuristic aspects associated with it, the vision for clean energy for all, and, with that in mind, exactly what Matt had asked, what was your knowledge of nuclear power, radioactivity or radiation, at the time of the TMI incident? Sharon, go ahead, rita, lead us off.

Speaker 8:

Actually nothing. But in 1951, I was 11 years old, I was in elementary school and the big news of that year was the Nobel Prize in physics to two men who were connected with the splitting of the atom. So that would have been my first hearing of anything of the sort and I didn't know, and I was 11, I didn't care, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 4:

That's right, dear rose yes and yes sir please tell us at the time, uh, what did you know about? You know, even growing up, the again that atomic age, that futuristic world. You know clean energy, nuclear power, is great for everybody, it's awesome. Uh, what did you know about nuclear power, radio activity, radiation I was born in new mexico.

Speaker 6:

You know new mexico radioactivity radiation. I was born in New Mexico. You know New Mexico, los Alamos.

Speaker 4:

Well, there was testing there. I believe that's where they exploded the first bomb. Well, they tested in.

Speaker 6:

White Sands. They tested, they made the bomb there in Los Alamos. Lots of scientists Aliens? Well, that's in Roswell.

Speaker 3:

Mexico.

Speaker 6:

But my sister was born there. My dad worked for Zia Company and I just remember hearing that Zia Company owned the town and we lived in this little I think they were called Denver homes. They were just a small little home and I remember my dad worked there and I remember him telling the story that, because he was just a, a worker, an ordinary worker, and he says, before I left, they used to hose us down with water.

Speaker 3:

A hose you know, like for the radioactive radiation.

Speaker 6:

Yes, yes, that's insane, so he did end up with um cancer. He died with cancer. And he died very young, he was 68. And, like I said, my sister was born there and she always thought you know she got this weird disease that had to be investigated at the CDC in Atlanta.

Speaker 6:

It was called polyomolicitis, something like that where it just it affected her muscles, it affected her bones. Or one day she just she just fell and they couldn't pinpoint what was wrong with her and she said to us later on she goes. I wonder if it had anything to do with being born in Los Alamos. I don't know, maybe the radio but anyway. I don't know, but that's, that's my. I don't know, maybe the radio, but anyway, I don't know, but that's my, I mean that really is something.

Speaker 4:

You came up where it started. They were test Hell. If I read correctly, so if we dropped a bomb in 1945, I think that was August I think they were still one of the first test, or last test might have been in June of that year. So I mean, wow Again, you came up right at the birth of it all. That's amazing.

Speaker 5:

That is amazing. Did that have anything to do with? When you heard about this at TMI, Did you kind of know what that was? Nuclear power.

Speaker 6:

Not really, but I don't know if I'm remembering this right or not, but I remember seeing that movie.

Speaker 5:

Oh, with Jane Fonda.

Speaker 6:

That's the next question.

Speaker 4:

Thank you, oh, hold on.

Speaker 6:

But I think we had seen that before.

Speaker 4:

Three.

Speaker 6:

Mile Island had occurred. Did that happen first?

Speaker 4:

Yep, it absolutely did. It absolutely did Foreshadowing.

Speaker 6:

And that all just brought just kind of everything back.

Speaker 4:

Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure, Dear Sharon, tell us about your knowledge of radioactivity, nuclear power the atomic age?

Speaker 5:

any of it?

Speaker 7:

I didn't know anything about TMI. I mean, I knew it was down there, but I didn't know what it did, what was the purpose of it. We had family that lived down there, but nobody talked about it.

Speaker 4:

It's amazing to hear down there. So in today's day and age, right, people are driving incredible distances just to go to work. So from here let's say where we record, in Dave's basement, all the way to TMI. I mean that's 40 minutes. You're looking at a half hour 40 minutes, but to any one commuter nowadays that's no big deal at all Hell some of us drive for a living. I mean, that's no big deal at all, no deal I mean how some of us drive for a living.

Speaker 5:

I mean, that's what you do. The jobs there were high paying jobs.

Speaker 3:

You're talking engineers you're talking at tmi.

Speaker 5:

Yes, the med ed I think was the ones that own that it was uh, 10 miles south of harrisburg, correct, is that?

Speaker 6:

yeah, so that's where we go m&m movie. Yeah, call it three mile. I don't know how close that was, but I know in middletown it was five miles yeah.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, yeah, you were in the immediate perimeter. You were certainly in the immediate perimeter I'm. So there was a another question. I'd had just thinking about this on the way over. So I know I can certainly say when we came here, but just really quickly, did the three of you live here Like all of our lives? Were you already all established here by the time we were all, each of us were born? Like, did you? Yeah, like, so?

Speaker 7:

Sharon grew up in Harrisburg, okay.

Speaker 4:

You do it all the way through, rose. Were you living here at the time when, when Matt was born?

Speaker 6:

Oh, yes, okay, children are born here. I was born in New Mexico.

Speaker 4:

Right, right.

Speaker 8:

I didn't him till 71. And rita, how about you?

Speaker 4:

I moved to pennsylvania from illinois in 1977 john was exactly one year we actually moved on his birthday so yeah, wow see, look at that, it was my birthday, but really the area it was, it was a gift for them? Yes it was a gift for them. So, rose, I want to start with you, since you left it off on that note. So so I have one of my questions here. As chance would have it, the movie the China Syndrome had been released in theaters 12 days prior to the events at Three Mile Island, just 12 days before. Did you see the movie prior to the events?

Speaker 6:

I did.

Speaker 4:

So that's got to be something crazy to see the screen come to life. Like, oh my gosh, I'm experiencing this Like is this? You know? Somebody's messing with my mind here?

Speaker 6:

It was weird, it was scary, it was I don't know. It's hard to describe, but after this happened I thought, oh my God, it was like just reliving that movie.

Speaker 4:

Sure sure In this movie. Sharon, how about you?

Speaker 7:

Did you?

Speaker 4:

see the movie before the incident?

Speaker 7:

no, I heard it. I heard the name of it, but I never.

Speaker 4:

I wasn't into all that sure have you ever seen the movie?

Speaker 3:

nope okay maybe that was promotion for tmi, like for the for the movie I'm like a truth lie. Yeah, like the tmi thing was like promotional for the movie. Yeah, get people to go wait, but the wait I don't.

Speaker 4:

Oh, it could have been that's right, the movie to get people to go. It could have been Wait, but the I don't. Oh, it could have been that's right.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, the movie wasn't doing well 12 days in.

Speaker 5:

Hey, look what we did. It's true, get out there.

Speaker 4:

See the movie. It's almost like assassinating a former president.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, just an earshot.

Speaker 4:

Ooh earshot, rita. How about you? Did you, uh, see the movie prior to the event?

Speaker 8:

no, I didn't um hear about it until afterwards, and and actually I it happened to show up on tv one time and that's when I watched it oh okay, so what you know, like how warriors comes on the tv back then that's right.

Speaker 3:

China syndrome, china syndrome.

Speaker 5:

I've never seen it have either you two I think yes, I've seen it a few actually. I think china syndrome I saw at uh, your cousin's house. I think that was on like an hbo. Yeah, at the time it's funny.

Speaker 4:

We were driving over here just really quickly for everyone. So my mom and I were talking about and she was trying to figure out where my aunt was at the time and and dave and tim, and I said, ma, they didn't live here. Then they, they didn't move here until you know at least 1980, if not 81 or 82. So that explains so much. Okay, yeah, how about that? All right, so, as we had mentioned, this incident began on a wednesday. By the end of the day after thursday, national news outlets were reporting on the tmi incident as though it were a dire disaster. Yet local officials and local news outlets were reporting that the incident was minor and there was nothing about which to be concerned. Sharon, did you receive any calls, any phone calls from anyone outside of the area, like somebody from other states or anything like that, that were asking about the incident, asking why you were still in the area or recommending that you flee?

Speaker 7:

Yes, I have an aunt that lives in Altoona, pennsylvania, her and her husband and my cousins, and she called and asked what's going on down there and I said well, I heard on the radio that a reactor there's a meltdown, something going on down through my island. She says I know, we heard it all up here. You need to get out of there now. So I called my mom. Of course my mom got everybody together my grandparents, my sister and her husband and kids, and I got a hold of my husband and we left. We left on Thursday, the next day, and we stayed here until Sunday. She said they're telling everybody to get out 50 miles out of the area. Well, we went farther than that, but still we left and we didn't come home until Sunday and nobody, even in our neighborhood, nobody left, nobody talked about it.

Speaker 5:

It's like it's just another day to them. So that's where you stayed in Altoona then you got out.

Speaker 4:

That's amazing, that is amazing.

Speaker 3:

Dad's name flea. You flee.

Speaker 2:

We should have known it makes so much sense, that makes so much sense mom rita, how about you?

Speaker 4:

uh, what did you? Did anyone call you from? I don't know. I know you had family in in chicago and you had family in california illinois and california.

Speaker 8:

I believe they both called and probably you know you're welcome to come here. That was about all.

Speaker 5:

So where did you end up going, or did you stay put?

Speaker 8:

I stayed put.

Speaker 5:

God bless her.

Speaker 4:

She's a fighter. Dear Rose, how about you? Did you receive calls from New Mexico or anyplace else?

Speaker 6:

Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure we all got calls, but we had to be evacuated. We were within five miles. But I remember when I finally said to my boss and everybody at work. I said I'm leaving and I didn't go get my kids because I wanted to know in our neighborhood.

Speaker 5:

But you left us there.

Speaker 4:

I wouldn't have gone either I would have left I would have left me there too.

Speaker 5:

That explains it.

Speaker 6:

No, I went to the neighborhood, so you and my dad left.

Speaker 5:

My six month old sister and I were left at the house.

Speaker 6:

I never left from him, but I did want to go to the neighborhood to see who was. Who was there. It was like deserted and it was the most the the yeariest feeling that I had, because it was just, nobody was there. And then I think my imagination started running wild, because then I'm thinking what am I?

Speaker 5:

smelling. You sure it wasn't drug induced by TMI.

Speaker 6:

What am I smelling here? This? It's like a funny smell and then, like a fool, I didn't even go in the house yet, I just Was it, matt's diapers.

Speaker 5:

No yeah, where were your kids while this was going?

Speaker 4:

on, she didn't carry no kids.

Speaker 5:

Where are the kids?

Speaker 6:

Get your babies out the street. You're still at Aunt Joyce's.

Speaker 5:

You were at the babysitter, so you passed this on. Thank you, mom.

Speaker 6:

And then because I didn't know.

Speaker 5:

Like again it was the unknown.

Speaker 6:

It was the unknown. Couldn't get a hold of your grandparents, couldn't get a hold of anybody. So I just wanted to know what the people in our neighborhood were doing, but hardly anybody was home.

Speaker 5:

It's interesting, our neighborhood is called Riverview Drive, so there wasn't really Riverview. It's just a look at TMI.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, that's what you can see. It's 100%. That's absolutely true. It was a small block.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, it was just one one street, but it was Riverview drive and the Riverview was TMI. Yep, we were right there.

Speaker 4:

I, I missed that a great deal I loved that house.

Speaker 5:

I loved that street. It was great. You had great neighbors I love it.

Speaker 4:

It was a good one. It's interesting that, Matt, your mom mentions Joyce as aunt Joyce. So Joyce was actually certainly not your real aunt. Instead, though, that woman has been featured and I mean a lot on a lot of TMI-related material. She's been on, I mean Netflix movies, she's been in documentaries, she's been in all kinds of stuff. So I mean, look, she lived it, she for nothing. She did, in fact, act as that neighborhood mom, and you know we all had those coming up. Everybody's moms knew everybody else's moms and heck, I, you know everybody called everybody else's mom mom. It's just the way it worked.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, we were like a latchkey kids, I guess.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely like to talk to. Uh, try to get my aunt joyce for our one show to maybe call in.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, sure, see if she can talk for a minute. She's very, she's very knowledgeable. See the one that was on the meltdown documentary. That was good. Yeah, you'd see her at every protest afterwards. That's what I'm saying as a kid. We were against it.

Speaker 5:

I think in one of the movies there was me as a child because she would drag us along yeah to like these protests and rallies and I just that's one thing I remember from being a child.

Speaker 4:

That's cool, yeah so this is now we're into essentially basically day two. So at the time we're now, we're just into day two, second day, this is just thursday. So at that time, what was your main mechanism of receiving news updates? Was it the television or the radio? And how glued to that mechanism for those first days or two were you relative to the TMI incident, like, is it something again? Like I'm not put, is it like watching the OJ trial? Or did you just go about your day and if you happen to hear about it later, well then, okay, I, I happen to hear about it later. Let's start with Ma. Okay, I happen to hear about it later, let's start with Ma.

Speaker 8:

I guess our main source was television and it was on all the time. We kept waiting for information to what we were supposed to do, you know where were we supposed to leave, when were we supposed to stay put, and the information you know would change from hour to hour what was going on, what you're supposed to do. And I do remember there were signs posted in the area and beyond I don't remember if they were color coded or letter coded or number and you, if you're going to be evacuated, you had to follow your sign sure, just like when there was a gas shortage you had to you.

Speaker 4:

There was odd numbers and even numbers absolutely you could not.

Speaker 8:

Um, they didn't want everybody on 81, sure, on the same at the same time, but, um, we just kept waiting and and um, you had a check with the news all the time because it kept changing. You know what was going on. That's interesting.

Speaker 4:

That'll lead into our next question, which I'm very anxious to get to check, with the news all the time, because it kept changing, you know what was going on. That's interesting. That'll lead into our next question, which I'm very anxious to get to. But in the meantime, dear Rose, what were you doing? Were you glued to the television or were you listening to the radio?

Speaker 6:

Well, I think we that first night I think we went to Matthew and Kimberly's grandparents in Oberlin to spend the night.

Speaker 4:

Steal the George.

Speaker 6:

And we ended up going to an aunt and uncle's house.

Speaker 5:

I thought you were going to say St Lawrence Club.

Speaker 6:

In Minersville and I remember, on our way there just listening to the radio, and I don't think we watched much TV. I don't recall that when we were there, but just worrying. And then I remember Kimberly. My daughter was so sick, she was running a really high temperature and she broke out in this rash all over her body, of course right away, I'm thinking radiation.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, she's a special agent. That's what we blame it on, my goodness.

Speaker 4:

Oh my goodness, Sharon, how about?

Speaker 6:

I'm sorry, I was just going to say we stayed there three nights, came back on Sunday because I thought, well, I've got to go back to work on Monday. And later on, when I did show up, they said well, you could have probably stayed two weeks off. You know Government, yeah.

Speaker 4:

Wait a second. Anyway, all right, sharon, how about you? Those first couple of days were you glued? Was it like the oj or what?

Speaker 7:

um, we were still in altoona, so, um, we didn't want the little ones to hear about everything that's going on, so we didn't all stay at my aunt's. We most of us stayed in a hotel, so of course the hotel had a swimming pool, so we took all the kids down to the pool area just to get them out of listening to all this, because they wouldn't understand it anyhow, and I explained it to them.

Speaker 4:

Sure.

Speaker 7:

So that's about it. And we didn't hear it. And then, when we did, we were back in the room. Then we went down to my aunt's and of course they had it plastered on all the TVs. The radios were on, because the radio has different information than the TV has on, so the radio has different information than the TV has on.

Speaker 4:

So who do you believe? Who do you believe? Well, it's funny, that still happens this day. So who do you believe? I?

Speaker 8:

hope that was an indoor pool.

Speaker 5:

It was, I was going to say it was an indoor-outdoor. Let it rain yeah.

Speaker 3:

I was going to say but.

Speaker 5:

Altoona is what from central Pennsylvania area?

Speaker 7:

That's about an hour and a half here.

Speaker 5:

Oh, so Altoona is west.

Speaker 3:

West Fun fact. On that Fun fact, and I don't know why I'm only maybe well, I'm only a month older than you, matt, but a couple months older than you, zach. I have one memory of TMI during that whole thing and I don't know why I remember this. It was the first time I had Gatorade. He stopped somewhere on the pap bringing out a bottle of Gatorade. It was like, I think, the lemon, lime flavor or whatever, and I have that memory. That's all I remember about that trip and everything else, even more fun fact.

Speaker 4:

That's back when Gatorade came in glass bottles. It was a glass bottle, yes.

Speaker 5:

I think Gatorade came out. What 79? Metal?

Speaker 4:

lids Really.

Speaker 5:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

It came out in the 60s. It was in. Florida.

Speaker 5:

Actually that's my memory of it, and then the t-shirts that came later on. I survived tmi and then. So there are two hours towards pittsburgh. Where were we at mom in marysville? Where is that?

Speaker 4:

from central peter yeah, that's 81 north.

Speaker 5:

That's on the way to mount carmel so it should get about two hours, an hour and a half no, it's less than that I don't think it was that many miles away.

Speaker 6:

Yeah.

Speaker 4:

Minersville you're. So Minersville is between, let's call it, pottsville and Mount Carmel. So let's say it's an hour, 15 hour and a half.

Speaker 8:

It's about an hour.

Speaker 4:

Minersville, I think that's what it yeah.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, I believe so.

Speaker 3:

There was a guy at work was ordering us and I was talking about this today. He said, like they, they went to duncan and I'm like man, you're cutting it close because they said 20 miles. I mean that's like 21 miles or whatever.

Speaker 4:

I'm like, wouldn't you like, but they were up river so we protect them the bare minimal.

Speaker 5:

I guess you know you guys were in high spire at the time. What you?

Speaker 4:

you guys were at high spire at the time I mean, we lived in high spire, yeah, yeah, but yeah, that's where you were at.

Speaker 5:

You stayed put.

Speaker 4:

And so far for two days now. So if we're on Thursday, we were definitely still there, I believe. Now I believe that at least, if not two of you, probably all three of you ladies had mentioned the confusing report. So Metropolitan Edison, also known as MedEd the owners of the TMI plant at the time initially alerted the public that there was nothing about which to be concerned. Alerted the public that there was nothing about which to be concerned. As the hours and days progressed, pennsylvania Governor Dick Thornburg and Lieutenant Governor Bill Scranton, having only been in office for two months, released follow-up mixed signals, thereby creating confusion between MedEd sources on one side versus the intelligence they were receiving from their experts in PA, in Washington DC. Now, local authorities and news outlets were only as good as the information they were given. So, with all that in mind, with respect solely to the first few days of the incident, do you recall the series of mixed signals that were given and any feelings of confusion you and your families were experiencing at the time? Rose, I'd love to start with you.

Speaker 6:

Yes, it was total confusion. I remember watching TV and seeing Jimmy Carter come into town and they put that white garb. I don't know if you remember that it looked like a beekeeper's kind of thing, Anyway, everybody was saying something different and again, just like this COVID thing, it was the unknown. You didn't know what to do, what to think, who to believe. It was not a good thing.

Speaker 5:

Did people think it started getting real? When the president shows up, People are like what is this gentleman doing here? Is this.

Speaker 6:

I've got to add gravity to the situation he had to come, he had to see what was going on. So many people affected yeah how was that so, rose?

Speaker 4:

you mentioned your neighborhood, and again, I remember coming up as a kid and I've been in that neighborhood dozens and dozens of times. Uh, when you mentioned the, at one point it seemed so desolate and it was eerie Again, did you, before you had skipped town, or before you had went skipped town, of course, made your way to Minersville? Did you? Did you? Was there hubbub amongst the neighbors as well, like everybody's a flurry, because you were by far and away the closest of. You know the three moms here.

Speaker 6:

you were certainly the closest one there, I should say nearest to tmi like I said, when I went home that first day, when I heard about it, there was nobody, nobody okay nobody around the neighbors and I think they probably evacuated and, um, maybe afterwards, I don't know. Um, maybe it was just. Oh, and our neighbor across the street worked for MedEd and he didn't really have much to say about it. I think they were so busy.

Speaker 4:

Sure, just another day at the office. Yeah, wow, there it is, sharon. In fact, you were certainly one of the most vocal recently about you heard one from one guy and then you heard certain something else from the other guy, and the radio was conflicting with the television. So again, how did that? How did that confusion You're? You're getting now you've already certainly left to, you've already hightailed it up to Altoona, but did you keep in touch with any of your neighbors back here? Did how? How does that? How does that process in your head when you're hearing one thing from one guy and something else from somebody else?

Speaker 7:

My mother-in-law had family down in Middletown, uncle Joe and them. He owned a mansion house.

Speaker 5:

Oh yeah, really, and they never left.

Speaker 7:

None of them left, okay, none of the aunts, uncles, cousins. They all stayed. And her sister lived right across the front yard, right across the street mile. She could see all the towers and houses. None of them left.

Speaker 4:

I used to love their food and none of the people in our neighborhood where we lived.

Speaker 7:

When we came back, none of those people left either. That's amazing. We were the only ones that ran.

Speaker 5:

You say amazing. I think it's just because nobody, you don't know what it is. You're just like oh, it's something that makes power, Like I don't.

Speaker 7:

It was like another day, that's fair.

Speaker 6:

And if I can just say that the reason that we left was because it was a mandatory evacuation, it was anybody within five mile radius, or pregnant or parents with small children Under five, I believe.

Speaker 5:

Kimberly was born right, she was six months. You said yes, my sister okay.

Speaker 3:

My wife actually was a TMI baby, so she was born July of 79. So I remember her mom was saying how they had to do follow-up checkups, I think, or something along those lines, because she was pregnant with Michelle during this whole ordeal. So I was wondering about Kim, because I know they're about the same age, so she was already born at this point.

Speaker 6:

And I took her to the doctor and I guess it was kind of just some virus. They didn't know what had caused all this. I guess a virus.

Speaker 4:

TMI COVID, I'm telling you.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, I guess a virus TMI, covid.

Speaker 4:

I'm telling you yeah, I'm thinking China, rita Ma, how about you? You still haven't left yet, you're still in Heisbacher.

Speaker 8:

We're still home and actually what it was because the news kept changing it was should we stay or should we go, and that's how we lived for another day or so.

Speaker 4:

And that kind of makes sense. I guess I should say it doesn't make sense, but I can understand it. That you're from a, from a public relations perspective. You know med ed's gonna put out everything's okay, everything's okay, relax. Everything's fine, everything's fine, uh. And yet then, not shortly thereafter, you have the governor, lieutenant governor, you have local officials, you have people from dc chiming in saying uh, you know, you might want to consider doing this, you might want to consider doing that. So I, I can understand it completely that you're just getting mixed signals and it's uh, how were you did? Did you get any input from the neighbors at the time? Like, were you talking to the sheens or the?

Speaker 8:

well, there are a number of little kids real close to us, all right at that same, about five or six little kids, and you just didn't see anybody, so you don't know where they left or they hide Staying in their homes.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, staying inside. That's amazing.

Speaker 4:

So it's Matt, you're all leading into these questions just so well. The next question just little thoughts here. So nuclear contamination is in, in fact, an invisible threat. There's no way to see it, hear it, touch it, taste it, smell it, before any sort of official evacuation was recommended by authorities at the time. How unnerving and tense were your considerations of fleeing versus staying at home and risking the invisible threat? Were your considerations of fleeing versus staying at home and risking the you know the invisible threat? And you know, did you and your family give serious considerations to the possible consequences of, you know, just packing a few suitcases, leaving everything behind and, you know, possibly having to start over from scratch? You know, sharon, let's start with you. You know, when you have this thing that's coming down the road and you, you just hear it coming over the radio. It sounds to me like you didn't think twice, that you were just look, let's drop everything, let's get the hell out of here.

Speaker 7:

Well, it's because my family was going. I didn't want to stay in here, and then they left. And we'll do happen, something that happened to us.

Speaker 4:

Right.

Speaker 7:

Then I had a fight with an argument with his dad, David's dad, because he didn't want to go.

Speaker 3:

He didn't want to stay.

Speaker 7:

He didn't want to flee and I said, well, I'm going with or without. And I went over to my mom's and I took the kids with me. Next thing you know he's coming down the road. He said, well, I'm not staying here if you're not staying here. So he came with us, but he wanted to stay home.

Speaker 5:

Was there a game on or something Cowboys were on?

Speaker 7:

It's the black and white.

Speaker 4:

It's the black and white to westerns. You know that's fantastic.

Speaker 5:

Or maybe it's like if I get to work like the next day, there'll be nobody in.

Speaker 4:

It's one of those easy days. It's going to be a great day at work.

Speaker 5:

yeah, it's going to be a nice day.

Speaker 4:

Alright. So, mom, I want to go with you next, because so far you're still in town. Say and put yeah, you know. I mean, we just heard, you know from from Sharon, that God you know if you quit, if you leave, if you leave the work now you're, you're fired, you're done. So there's, there's the possibility. You know, depending on employers at the time there's no protections in place. You know what happens if you are. Are you toying with that back and forth of gosh? You know, if I pick up and us, what's going to happen? Do we leave stuff here? Or this is probably before the idea of looters ever really came into vogue. You know there's no riots and stuff like that. People know what looting was, or at least there wasn't a term for it. But anyway, I'm filling your answers in the blanks here for you. Go right ahead.

Speaker 8:

Well, after, you know, listening for a couple of days, we decided it didn't sound terribly urgent and we would leave, but intending to leave only for a short time. So we weren't planning on packing up and you know never seeing our house again. It was just going to be till this blows over and you know we'll be back.

Speaker 4:

Okay, and again, rose, you said you, you, it was basically you, you, that that day you, you had gotten the equivalent of the evacuation order or something along those lines, and you got home that day from work and everybody was gone, so you were ready to go. There was no consideration. You're like let's go, let's pack, let's go. It was, or was there certainly that fear. You know you're, you're emptying your, you're leaving your home. I mean, you know, what do you take with you? You know, do I take my hair dryer?

Speaker 5:

Did my dad take a keg? Yeah?

Speaker 6:

Well, he wasn't there to decide. I mean, we still had to communicate.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, there's no communication.

Speaker 6:

And, like I said, I finally picked up you and your sister, went over to your grandma's and grandpa's and then he met us there. We spent the night there. We go back, I think, the next day, and I gathered a few things but I, I think we wanted to get out again. The fear of the unknown. You just don't know. You don't know, like you're saying, what to take with you, what to pack, how long are we going to be gone? Do we take important papers?

Speaker 6:

I mean I don't know if that even crossed our mind, because it was just, it was scary times, did my grandpa, did Papa and Grandma go?

Speaker 5:

No, they stayed put.

Speaker 6:

They stayed put. Like I said, we were mandatory evacuation.

Speaker 3:

Was your dad at the depot at the time. Yes, that's where my dad was working at the depot at the time. Yes, that's where my dad was working at the depot at the time, yeah, so maybe there's something going on there. They didn't want to leave.

Speaker 5:

It was like some sort of coverage that came over it.

Speaker 4:

By depot do you mean Legion or VFW?

Speaker 5:

Army depot. The Army depot. It was actually an Army depot in, I think, 79.

Speaker 4:

I understand that, but not far from there is a VFW.

Speaker 3:

Oh yes, yeah, maybe something's going on there that was. March, madness was maybe on there. Oh, that's true.

Speaker 5:

That's true.

Speaker 4:

So you've already beat me. Basically to the next question. So the incident happened on a Wednesday. The official announcement came on Friday, March 30th, that pregnant women and young children oh, was that Friday?

Speaker 6:

Yeah, it's fine.

Speaker 4:

Rose, you're fine. By the way, you are a saint. You're amazing. Thank you again. All of you, thank all three of you for being with us and doing this with us. This is great that five-mile radius was increased to a 20-mile radius, and at that point it's not a question as to whether to evacuate, it's just a question of how fast can you get the hell out of there. So you've already answered the days you decided to leave, sharon, you got out immediately. Rose, you weren't out not long after.

Speaker 5:

So we're in Altoona, minersville and you guys are ready to leave now?

Speaker 8:

Yeah, we decided we'll take John and we took him up to.

Speaker 4:

Oh. Thanks, I appreciate that.

Speaker 5:

Again, it was another like where the parents were leaving us. My mom was like well, I went home and I was hanging out.

Speaker 4:

I guess we should take the kids, yeah, okay.

Speaker 8:

No, we just packed. We packed everything up for John to go up to my in-laws for about a week and then my husband and I just went home and it never dawned on me. You know well what if something bad happens to us here.

Speaker 5:

So you dropped Young Zap off Up there. Where was up there?

Speaker 8:

Well near Mount Carmel, Okay Up in Shamok and up in coal country.

Speaker 4:

It is on the road between Mount Carmel and Centralia.

Speaker 3:

It's smack dab in the lovely town of Wilberton Peaceways up the road, and this is before the fire up there and all that stuff.

Speaker 4:

It's after the fire, after the fire.

Speaker 3:

When did the Centralia fire start?

Speaker 4:

Well, since we did a podcast on it, I don't remember, though.

Speaker 3:

I thought that I was in the 60s, wasn't it?

Speaker 4:

Late 60s, early 70s.

Speaker 3:

That's right, okay, okay.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, Centralia, it was burning.

Speaker 3:

But it was still people living there at that time. Shit yeah leave it, I'm fine.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, pennsylvania's got a lot going on so to pull, let's piece it, just to piece all that together for anyone who wasn't keeping keeping score. So my parents took me up to mount carmel, the equivalent of mount carmel dropped you all dropped me off and came back with some diapers they came back to the harrisburg area. It's a high spire. And what did I? What did you tell me on the way over here?

Speaker 5:

you went on, your aunt and uncle that took you, that took him in.

Speaker 4:

No, in my, her, my, my grandparents, her in-laws.

Speaker 5:

Oh, you're okay, my in-laws, yeah, okay.

Speaker 4:

Did you say you went out to dinner that night Like hell yeah, the kid's out of town.

Speaker 8:

Well, we came home it was on a Saturday, so we came home until we got what used to be Saturday's market.

Speaker 5:

There's a diner there.

Speaker 8:

There's a diner there, so we went in there for supper and it was only just a couple of people in there and the conversations were really very, very hushed. You know kind of what happens next. That was kind of what we're all waiting for. But in the meantime I did think about well, gee, we left John up there. What if something bad happens?

Speaker 5:

down here.

Speaker 8:

And those people are old.

Speaker 3:

They can't take care of him forever.

Speaker 8:

But that's the way it was.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, and that's how it was at the time.

Speaker 4:

So I don't know if you had caught it. They went down to dinner at a diner, yeah, a diner right there by Saturday's Market. The Big M Down there. Yeah, yeah, yeah I think I know where that.

Speaker 3:

If it's the same structure, I think I know where she's talking about.

Speaker 4:

It's like little zaps taken care of. Let's have a date night. That's messed so. With that, the exodus of more than 140,000 people from the area gave rise to, as Rose had mentioned, telephone lines being jammed with frantic callers. You got nightmarish traffic. You got gas stations being mobbed with people anxious to fill up. You got banks, even just harkening back to what Rose had mentioned banks filled up with people withdrawing their savings, cashing their checks. You obviously are going to have grocery stores that are running out of their products, ma rita, do you recall the panic that I just described?

Speaker 8:

tell us about your evacuation experience. I don't remember any kind of panic, um. In fact, the reason that we took you is we might have um used up what food we had in the house, not knowing what was going to happen next. But I don't recall any traffic jams, because we got from 83 to 81, and once you're on 81. Back then it was pretty good going.

Speaker 4:

Okay, rose, so you got the hell out of Dodge again as soon as you heard the news to evacuate, if not days before. Uh, how did you, uh? Did you run into anything I had mentioned?

Speaker 6:

no, um, but I do recall still this, this noise on the radio about evacuations, evacuate, starting how they were going to evacuate the hospitals, how were they? How they were going to evacuate nursing homes, and it was a scary.

Speaker 5:

I thought, oh my god who gave the evacuation call was it? Was it uh?

Speaker 6:

president carter or dick thorne okay for sure, for sure, yeah okay, sharon, how about you again?

Speaker 4:

you got out as quickly as you could, was there? Was there a mass exodus? Everybody's getting the hell out? Or were you stuck in traffic? Telephone lines jammed, banks are busy, grocery stores are busy, gas stations are busy as soon as we heard about it.

Speaker 7:

We just left okay so we didn't have no traffic you got out of quick, first people out early look at that.

Speaker 4:

This speaks volumes.

Speaker 7:

We didn't have to worry about getting groceries because we were going to stay at a motel. They had restaurants up there. We eat up there. My aunt and uncle's going to cook for us. We didn't have to worry about all that.

Speaker 5:

She just had like a little mini vacation. Man, she was set. We had Sheetz up there.

Speaker 3:

That's where all the Sheetz are at.

Speaker 7:

Yeah, the Sheetz was up there.

Speaker 4:

Really the Sheetz start with that Alto 1979,.

Speaker 7:

I'm sure. Wow, it was right up around the corner from where they lived.

Speaker 5:

I think I've got to be a billionaire, that's amazing, that's amazing. Wow All right.

Speaker 4:

Well, we've already invoked his name. So, president, jimmy Carter arrived at TMI around 10 am on Sunday, april 1st 1979. So this is but four days after the incident began. Now, by the end of that day this is by the end of Sunday reports were released that much of the scary hydrogen bubble that had accumulated this is within that cooling tower, within that cooling apparatus had been released and that the threat had diminished, it had been minimized. By Tuesday, not just two days after that, we're now six days after the incident. Reports were released that the hydrogen bubble had been completely released. Rita, you're killing me with that noise.

Speaker 5:

That's a good article right there.

Speaker 4:

By Tuesday, reports were released that the hydrogen bubble had been completely released and that any would-be threat no longer existed. Schools announced that they would reopen that coming Wednesday. That was just one week after the incident. So with all of that. So, dear Rose, how long did you stay outside of the area and at what point did you return?

Speaker 6:

We returned that Sunday Cause, like I said, I thought I had to report back to work on Monday.

Speaker 4:

Such rule followers. So four days, four days out. Sharon, how about you and your family?

Speaker 7:

Well, I didn't have to worry about going back to work because I didn't have a job. Remember, that's right.

Speaker 4:

God bless you. God bless you, sharon.

Speaker 7:

That, god bless you Sharon, that's awesome Hell with it, but I had to go look for another job.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, there's that. And then you ended up at Channels.

Speaker 3:

And I ended up at Channels, yeah, but didn't you say he wanted you back the guy?

Speaker 7:

Yeah, he wanted me back, but I wasn't going to give him the satisfaction because he couldn't get anybody else to work the hours that I would work.

Speaker 3:

That's right.

Speaker 7:

No, but he did, I did go back.

Speaker 4:

Worked part-time. I was going to say I was waiting to hear you say you spit in his eye.

Speaker 7:

No, I went back and worked part-time and he put me in charge of all the salad bars and I went all over.

Speaker 4:

Pennsylvania, oh wow.

Speaker 7:

Set up the salad bar, and it was actually a commercial on TV for it.

Speaker 5:

That's awesome. Were Were you on the commercial.

Speaker 7:

Huh.

Speaker 5:

Were you on the commercial.

Speaker 7:

No, they didn't show my face, they just showed my hand.

Speaker 5:

You get money for that I got a raise All right.

Speaker 7:

But then, right after that's, when I got September, I started at Highmark and I just quit.

Speaker 4:

Nice, that's pretty cool. It's like OnlyFans.

Speaker 3:

That's a really neat OnlyFans story Red Barn OnlyFans.

Speaker 7:

Red Barn, only Dave was in there every Saturday and Sunday morning.

Speaker 2:

Hell yeah, I'd be too, oh yeah, Sausage the biscuits Yep, he loved them sausage, I remember those yeah.

Speaker 5:

One of my favorite buffets was the Wendy's buffet, if anybody remembers that they had.

Speaker 3:

Like Anybody remember the Wendy's buffet? Yeah, the Wendy's buffet, we were talking about that.

Speaker 4:

You mentioned it recently. There's certainly a great fondness, I would argue. Buffet was top notch.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, but Ponderosa was meant to have a buffet. Wendy's is just like Wendy's.

Speaker 4:

It's true.

Speaker 5:

Like some spaghetti. You're like what am I eating Spaghetti at a hamburger joint? It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. Nachos I was like what do you have nachos for it's crazy, I guess.

Speaker 4:

So now, finally, to you mom partying out to eat. Yeah, they wanted to dinner.

Speaker 5:

That's amazing. So you were hell, you, you left and came back the same damn day. Yeah, okay he does like where's our son?

Speaker 8:

who, who? No man. Yeah, we went back a week later and got him oh wow, a whole week could have caught you the next day like, oh, wait a while.

Speaker 5:

That's amazing.

Speaker 8:

I'm not sure I was, uh, I can't. I worked for the middletown journal for a lot of years and, um, I called my boss today and um asked him what he remembered about that. Well, he was only 25 years old himself, but, uh, he happened. Because I I remember a photograph in his office of him and Jimmy Carter and I thought, well, when the president came here he had his picture taken in Middletown. But it wasn't. He was in Washington for something that the president was having, and that's when he had his picture taken. But he was telling me today that afterwards he went to a borough council meeting in Middletown and one of the council people said you know, if this thing had been really, really serious, jimmy Carter would not have been allowed into Unit 2.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's what I was wondering watching that documentary, Like I think the president coming was probably a sign of reassurance.

Speaker 5:

They're trying to let people know. If the president's here, Even though he probably didn't know at the time what the heck was going on, they just told him yeah, it's okay.

Speaker 3:

But he had a background in nuclear. There was something he had to do Nuclear submarine. He was in the Navy.

Speaker 5:

He worked on nuclear submarines.

Speaker 1:

Man good one.

Speaker 4:

Matt.

Speaker 5:

Matt matt, matt knows, matt knows some stuff, man, look at that also. You were saying about middletown, jimmy carter, I guess ground zero. There was an mcso building. It's right there across from the middletown public library, if you guys remember where that building was at so there's this band, this local fantastic band from back in the 90s called screw face.

Speaker 4:

They just played. They played at the mcso building, oh wow sure did.

Speaker 5:

But yeah, jimmy carter, that's where he made his speeches and thornburg, they were there at the mcso building I still.

Speaker 4:

This blows my mind. Not for not for nothing. This was two weeks. I'm sorry, not two weeks, two months. Two months into thornburg's first four years as governor of pennsylvania. I mean two months, come on man you're dealing with this yeah, man, man, that's bananas.

Speaker 5:

That's not unlike I didn't sign off for this.

Speaker 4:

That's crazy. That's crazy. All right, let's get a little lighthearted, shall we? So the following Saturday, on April 7th 1979, this is 10 days or so after the event Saturday Night Live performed a skit called the Pepsi Syndrome. Within that skit, an accident not unlike the TMI incident occurred on a fictional two-mile island when an employee spilled a bottle of Pepsi on a control panel. Do any of you recall watching that episode when it aired?

Speaker 8:

Did not no.

Speaker 4:

Okay, no TMI fans. And one more, final one, final funny. So this is for all of you. So do you think that your son's particular physical detriment might be a result of exposure to radiation from the TMI incident?

Speaker 5:

I think the exposure made us handsome young men. That's it.

Speaker 4:

Sharon, your son's physical detriment would be his height, rose, your son's would be his protruding forehead, your son's would be his protruding forehead and, mom, yours would be your son's terribly receding hairline and thinning hair At all. Do you think that any of that is a result of the exposure to TMI?

Speaker 5:

My forehead is not.

Speaker 6:

TMI whatsoever. This was the forceps they used.

Speaker 5:

Of my cocaine addict doctor correct. Was he not a cocaine addict?

Speaker 6:

I think that was with Kimberly though.

Speaker 5:

Oh, I thought that was me with the forceps with the cocaine addict doctor, correct, Was he not a cocaine addict? I think that was with Kimberly, though. No, I thought that was me with the forceps with the cocaine addict.

Speaker 3:

According to the McDevitt football program. I'm like 5'10".

Speaker 4:

Really no, I know they. They're only as good as the numbers you give them.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's exactly it.

Speaker 5:

You're not that short are you 5'8", 6'1 1⁄2", six one and a half?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, he's like he's one inch or an inch and change shorter than me, but I I'm going to remind him of it whenever I can.

Speaker 3:

That's it.

Speaker 4:

That's why I try to keep my hair in a little pompadour too, so I look a little taller. I think you got a lot of hair, yeah, what do you?

Speaker 5:

say about the uh the detriments or whatever Like there was yeah, they were taking pictures like these mushrooms that were like the size of trees, like really yes oh for real.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, uh, joyce what about the uh fish? No, they said there was a bunch of dead fish that, like I, think there was rumors of that.

Speaker 4:

The heat that comes out of like the that used to be pumped outside let's not forget now, during this whole, this whole thing which I'm sure, which we mentioned in our in our podcast, just specific to details, over the course of this event, approximately 400 000 gallons of radioactive water was pumped into the river. Uh, either you know inadvertently or on you know purpose, so you might get some, you know contamination, even even the slightest amount of that that radioactivity could in fact, or that radiation could in fact have an effect. And to this day, there are certainly proponents, like you know, joyce, like you had mentioned, who you know, will argue that yeah, that place is tainted, that that place is funky.

Speaker 8:

And I wouldn't know what to ask after that. Is it a matter Middletown? And then, like five years later, even greater. But then when further studies were done, it really wasn't true, because the terrible accident in 1986 at Chernobyl, when there was an explosion, they didn't have nearly the cancer that Middletown was reporting, and so it really eased my mind a lot about what happened.

Speaker 4:

I wonder if that was actually the result of the steel mill that's up the river in Steelton. I mean, look, I can tell you you go into Steelton. Every other person has cancer. I promise you it's ridiculous. You're talking about, for anyone who's not aware, stealton, pennsylvania, formerly a bustling, crazy, dynamic town that is built on steel, where the business, the Bethlehem Steel Corporation, is in fact the length of the entire town. We're talking miles long. Is this steelton, this bethlehem steel plant? I mean the stuff that they're melting and cooking and putting together and pressing out and doing whatever, releasing into a canal, into the river. I mean, come on, people are fishing there, people are breathing it in it's, it's bananas but also too, then there was no like a osha or no type of safety no I mean, these were hard working men that would get up, go to work, work 12, 16 hours a day shit yeah enjoy their time off.

Speaker 5:

Um, they all went to you know, like the what's that one song that they go to? You know the shore, like the allentown thing they go to like the jersey shore for vacation. But, um, yeah, that that's. There was no type of safety standards, nobody was coming in and shutting down because you know Tommy's working a 16-hour shift.

Speaker 3:

Nobody cared. Yeah, nobody cared.

Speaker 5:

What they were breathing in, whatever they were melting, they didn't care, as long as they were making good steel.

Speaker 4:

So Rose, you lived closest. Yeah, what was your do you still have, or still to this day or even later thereafter, like, so you know, matt and I, let's say, or Matt, dave and I are in high school or whatever. So that's, you know, you're talking a couple of decades later, I'm sorry, a decade and a half later. Did you still at that point have concerns about TMI? Would it have since then kind of rolled off the memory and not a big deal anymore?

Speaker 6:

I think so. I think it was not, but you still had that kind of fear in the back of your mind. But I did want to mention that I don't know if we received a letter and I don't know if it was on a voluntary basis that we did this. But you were talking about the MCO, was that where they played basketball?

Speaker 6:

MCSO yep I remember they had a deal where you had to go in to check if you were contaminated at all. I've never done one of those. What do you do when people would go for tans Tanning bed? Look like this, they're like a coffin kind of thing where you get in there and they tested you and I remember going for that. It was kind of oh that's wild man.

Speaker 4:

that is weird.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, but I don't remember getting results back. Were you?

Speaker 5:

the only one that went in there? No, I think there's Was there other people or dudes set it up? No, no, no, no, no, no. Just take your clothes off. It was like I said.

Speaker 6:

I don't know if we did this on a volunteer basis, but we did get a letter.

Speaker 1:

Why would you volunteer for something like that?

Speaker 4:

Because I wanted to know if I was contaminated. So was it in a van? Okay, just making sure that you weren't getting one, you know, when somebody wasn't pulling something over you.

Speaker 6:

No, there was a lot. No, it was, I think, an official letter Wow.

Speaker 4:

Official, like a referee's letter.

Speaker 5:

It had like a letterhead on it and everything. Yeah, I can make one of those.

Speaker 6:

It had a president's signature, but then, like I said, I don't remember if we got results from it. I don't remember.

Speaker 4:

Sharon, you're living in harrisburg. Coming up in harrisburg you came back. Everybody's all right, brand shiny and new again. Did you know the thoughts of the incident or anything like that you know linger in your mind thereafter, or was it whatever hell, our neighbors didn't leave nothing really happened.

Speaker 7:

I didn't worry about it. I figured if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. That's life that's right.

Speaker 4:

That's right.

Speaker 3:

That's a good outlook I got a fun question I want to ask. Well, I say fun based on, uh, bangada didn't happen, but let's just pretend the worst possible scenario happened and a relocation was necessary. You can never come back to the area Like what is one thing from central PA, like a food product or a restaurant or something that you'd want to take with you if you could, if you had to move, let's say, back to Illinois or New Mexico, or if we stayed out in Altoona, Is there anything in this area that if let's pretend this area was uninhabitable and you could never come back like think of? Like your Middlesworth chips or your you know whatever product or any place or restaurant in this area that you'd like to take along?

Speaker 7:

I think the pictures from when you were born, growing up. You're not going to take them with you when you're running. Well, that type stuff but.

Speaker 3:

I mean like a product, let's say, or a place, like that stuff. Yeah, obviously you'd take along what you could, but if there's something that's like PA-based and central PA, that would go away. Like, is there anything here that you'd love, you know, if you could have one thing and you're relocating like a product or a place or anything, was there anything that you would totally miss? Like, oh, I can't believe I'll never have X, y or Z again. You know, whatever it might be, I don't know, maybe there's nothing that great around here, maybe they don't care.

Speaker 4:

Maybe they make their own food. It's running through my head.

Speaker 3:

I'm thinking of things like Schmidt's sausage or Middlesworth potato chips or Tasty Cake, because there was talks that it would wipe out from here to Philly, down to DC, like a huge area, depending on how bad it would have gotten.

Speaker 5:

If the wind blew the wrong way, it could have taken out New York City. What if you guys had to relocate? Would there be anywhere that you would want to live? Central PA is closed. Get out of there. So where would you go, you think?

Speaker 7:

Well I know when his dad was at the depot he could have got. They were asking for volunteers to go to Germany, so we had thought. I even talked to Highmark about getting transferred to Germany. Could I be transferred over? They said yes.

Speaker 5:

Dave, you missed out. Yeah, I know.

Speaker 7:

Der Espen Schurter. And then it was scary. None of this crap that's going on today with the world you know, wasn't going on. So it was an experience. Yeah, I would have went and we would have lived right on base. We wouldn't have lived off the base and we would have been over there for four years. But then I think, what do you do with the house? You don't want to take and run it out because you don't know what shape it will be in when you come back.

Speaker 3:

That's what our house here you mean.

Speaker 5:

No, when we lived on it's what our house here, the government, probably would take that over.

Speaker 7:

But it's like then your dad thought about it more and more and then he said, nah, we're not going to do it. No, it was just too much. And then we only had two weeks to get everything organized and that was too much and I was nervous about trying. What do I take? Do I take this? Do I take that we just decided not to do it, we just stayed here.

Speaker 8:

Then what about you miss app back to illinois? Probably not. Um no, I wouldn't go back there, I would have stayed here. I kind of did like up up in the coal region was kind of nice, nice place. Okay, I don't know about now.

Speaker 4:

Well it's got many jobs up there. Yeah, it's kind of run down now.

Speaker 8:

Cole's not doing that good anymore but 45 years ago, I think I I would have liked it we're in Illinois.

Speaker 6:

Where in Illinois did you live?

Speaker 8:

well, I was born in Chicago, so I was actually raised in the suburbs untouchables Al Capone.

Speaker 5:

Chicago. How about you, mom? You think you could have talked that going back to Southwest?

Speaker 6:

Probably.

Speaker 3:

Okay, yeah, probably. That's where you would have went then, probably, and nobody would take anything along, nothing from here, nothing you would miss.

Speaker 4:

These are mothers. They cook their own food. Yeah, they make the best food. Yeah, just anything?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, they make the best food. Yeah, just Anything. I can't even think of anything. You know, what do we have around here that would be like, other than food products?

Speaker 5:

Oh, you're talking like Seltzer's Bologna.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, well, that's all like Food based stuff, but like. I guess Hershey Park's Really the only I always tell people Don't ever forget.

Speaker 6:

Who you are, where you came from, where your roots are. And that's so important and that's for you guys. That's right here.

Speaker 3:

Right. That's a good thing, I guess those we really have here is Hershey Park and the state capital and stuff like that.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, take the capital.

Speaker 3:

Take the capital yeah.

Speaker 4:

Take the whole building.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, Do you know of any people who did not come back to the area that once they left they just kind of stayed where they were at? I don't think it was that big of a thing no but just maybe somebody left and was like you know what, screw it like, we'll just stay where we're at and maybe not move back.

Speaker 5:

I mean not maybe because they were scared to move. You gotta figure, like early late 79, going into their 80s, I think people like you had a job. You're rooted like people didn't not like today where you could work online or things like that. I think it's like where you were at is where you were at yeah, I think it'd be hard to just pick up and go just because of something nuclear out there. You'd be like, ooh, that's scary nuclear power.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, well, not even that, but let's just say her job was pretty much gone. Let's say there was somebody like her that was a single mother and that happened. Maybe they left and were like, yeah, I'll just stay here. I can see what you're saying. Probably it wasn't as big of a deal. I guess after a couple of days you realize let's just go back. But yeah, that's pretty much all I had.

Speaker 5:

I think what Zap has there on one of your fun facts, if you would like to elaborate, or I could just say you know how you said no nuclear plants have been built in the US since.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I mean. So that's true and we so we mentioned that on our last podcast, but it's certainly it's, it's ladies. Since that incident, there have been no additional nuclear power plants built in the United States, not since then, so any power plants that are still working or that had been built. Everything was prior to the incident on March 28th 1979.

Speaker 5:

So you think that says that there was something bigger than what they let everybody know?

Speaker 4:

You think?

Speaker 5:

there was something that you know that they found out later on that crap like something big has happened, so it's probably not best, especially since Chernobyl also.

Speaker 4:

So I don't believe that. I do, however, believe that arguably in it. So this scared people. It certainly did. Now there were additional controls put in place, additional processes, procedures, safeguards, all kinds of stuff that was put in place.

Speaker 3:

Also, I'm happy to report that there has never been any deaths in the United States as a result of nuclear power, which is great, allegedly Look at the numbers.

Speaker 4:

There have been none directly related. And after Chernobyl? So just as this starts simmering down years later, then Chernobyl happens and then everybody's just scared. So add to that any sort of propaganda. So you've got anti-coal movement. You've got that. Oh, it's hurting the bees and the trees and the whales and the snails. And then you have well gosh, do we want another TMI? Do we want a meltdown? A scare tactic or two is going to scare people out of wanting nuclear power I heard they're reopening it hell yeah, that's a thing.

Speaker 4:

So they closed opening tmi yeah absolutely they're. They're restarting that engine. No, yeah, they're greasing it up. They're, now that thing's been down for putting some gas in there. Is there such a thing? No I didn't hear that they're dude, they're restarting it, bro they're not restarting it, dude.

Speaker 5:

That is closed down. Look it up.

Speaker 4:

Look it up.

Speaker 3:

I think there was.

Speaker 4:

Was this on the internet?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think that's where I did see it. Yeah, no, it was on the news.

Speaker 5:

I think, dude, it's on, that thing is shut down.

Speaker 4:

It'll be shut down for the next. It's got to cool down. Turn it into a golf course or something like that. Okay, look it up. Oh, I don't want to put any scare into anybody, but there is a trace radioactivity in both bananas and your smoke detectors in your house. I blame TMI. There's a beam of light that runs between two poles in your smoke detectors and the metal on that. Whenever smoke breaks that beam. That's why the detectors go off, but the metal that's holding that beam is, in fact, there's a small trace-trace level of radiation in there.

Speaker 5:

It's the same with pointers, laser pointers and things like that. They hold that small trace of radiation.

Speaker 4:

There you go. So those are some fun facts.

Speaker 3:

And there's a market right across from Tim Red Hill Market or something like that, where they have all like fruits and vegetables and stuff.

Speaker 5:

I think there are all kinds of like little stands.

Speaker 3:

Is that stuff farmed right there by the team? I believe so.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, yeah, what is that? Is that Bainbridge?

Speaker 5:

Bainbridge is right above TMI. Yeah, okay, moms for all coming out for this this is very, very fun. Sincerely.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, thank you all. This is really wonderful it's. You know, it's so good to have all three of you with us and we're, we're all fortunate to still have all three of you with us. It's wonderful, you know. We, we certainly want to have this, not only for your wisdom and your experience but, you know, also for selfishly, for our, for our sakes, for nostalgia. It's just good to have family and good to have everybody chipping in on this little project of ours.

Speaker 5:

We'll get you guys together for a baking show. Do something on our favorite dish.

Speaker 6:

She's a good baker.

Speaker 5:

You probably are too and how to cook something.

Speaker 4:

We'll bring you all together. You could do a restaurant review of your local Red Lobster or a restaurant of your choosing.

Speaker 3:

We could do a vintage cinema review with them. Yeah, review like a movie from back then? No, but we talked about this. For months now We've been talking about doing this and thought it'd be a good idea, because we don't really remember. I have that one memory and that's it. And like I talked about the I Survived TMI t-shirts. You guys remember those? Oh I remember those yeah.

Speaker 5:

So that's, I wonder if you can still get.

Speaker 3:

we could probably make it Sure, you can make it, but no, we appreciate it, it was great. Thank you, thank you all Mamas. This was awesome. Yeah, I guess that's it.

Speaker 5:

You guys got anything else.

Speaker 4:

No.

Speaker 3:

That's it, so don't forget to find us on Facebook and Instagram at Old Dirty Basement and on TikTok at Old Dirty Basement Podcast.

Speaker 5:

I guess that's it On the flip side. If we don't see you sooner, we'll see you later. Peace. Thanks for hanging out in the old, dirty basement. If you dig our theme music, like we do, check out the Tsunami Experiment, find them on Facebook. Their music is available streaming on Spotify and Apple and where great music is available.

Speaker 3:

You can find us at Old Dirty Basement on Facebook and Instagram and at old dirty basement podcast on tiktok peace, we outtie 5000.