Ol' Dirty Basement: True Crime and Vintage Movie Reviews
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Ol' Dirty Basement: True Crime and Vintage Movie Reviews
Heaven's Gate: Marshall Applewhite's Journey from Faith to Fatal Celestial Obsession
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What drives a man to lead a group to their ultimate demise in pursuit of celestial ascension? Join us as we unravel the life of Marshall Herff Applewhite Jr., the charismatic but troubled leader of the Heaven's Gate cult. We start our journey in Spur, Texas, exploring his deeply religious roots, his vibrant high school days in Corpus Christi. Discover how Applewhite’s early years and personal struggles, including his conflict with his faith and burgeoning homosexual desires, shaped the path to his notorious future.
We then navigate the turbulent chapters of Applewhite's life, including his controversial dismissal from the University of Alabama and the societal pressures surrounding homosexuality during the '60s. The narrative takes a turn with the crucial meeting of Bonnie Nettles, who became his spiritual partner. Together, they formed the Heaven's Gate cult, a group marked by strict communal living and extraordinary beliefs, including voluntary castration for spiritual purity. The compelling dynamics of this duo, who saw themselves as the prophesied witnesses from the Book of Revelation, offer a fascinating glimpse into their unique spiritual journey.
Our discussion culminates with the tragic end of the Heaven's Gate cult, spurred by the Hale-Bopp comet. Learn about their infamous online presence and the eerie farewell videos left behind by the members. Tune in for an episode brimming with history, mystery, and provocative stories that will keep you riveted from start to finish.
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Thanks for tuning in to the old dirty basement. On this week's episode we're covering Marshall Herff.
Speaker 2:Applewhite, yeah, was he a visionary leader or was he a deluded and manipulative?
Speaker 3:man. Yeah, this guy was a knock knock, knocking on heaven's gate.
Speaker 1:Yeah Right, we hope you're enjoying the podcast and, if you are, leave us that five-star rating on Spotify. On Apple, leave us a written review and sit back, relax and enjoy.
Speaker 4:Marshall herff, applewhite jr this is the old, dirty basement home to debauchery, madness, murder and mayhem. A terror-filled train ride deep into the depths of the devil's den.
Speaker 1:With a little bit of humor.
Speaker 2:History and copious consciousness. I'm your announcer, Shallow.
Speaker 4:Throat. Your hosts are Dave, matt and Zap. I love you, matthew McConaughey.
Speaker 3:All right, all right, all right, all right.
Speaker 1:Hey, this is dave, matt and zap, and welcome to the old dirty basement where every week we cover a true crime murder or compelling story.
Speaker 3:So sit back, relax and comprehend. Hello, hello, hello everyone and welcome back to another episode edition of Old Dirty Basement. I am Matt, with me. Always is Dave and Zap how you guys doing.
Speaker 2:Doing well, all right, buenos nachos.
Speaker 1:I was waiting for you to say exquisite episode. I like that, that one. You said that Exquisite.
Speaker 2:Another exquisite episode I have to put that to memory up the game there yeah, wow some fancy words you're a very cunning linguist indeed.
Speaker 3:So this one again, matt your choice yeah, I know I'm like all over the place, just like the movie.
Speaker 2:Uh, marshall appleway right yeah, we're doing marshall applewhite today which more people might know him from the. Uh, heaven's gate if you might have heard of that I completely forgot about this now, at the same time, like I forgot about a lot of stuff that happened at any point after I graduated high school, like there was a point of I don't know I'm sorry, not even high school well, maybe high school, but christ from like 18 to late 20s. I forget a lot of that shit.
Speaker 3:I just remember those mad Nike kicks which we'll get into later, but they were hard to come by For sure.
Speaker 1:I don't know where they got them or whatever, but I just remember, man, those are some cool kicks as it goes with these cults and stuff like that, is this after David Koresh and all that, the one down in yes, okay. Yeah, okay, I was just curious.
Speaker 3:It's happened a little bit later. This was with that whole the, the comment thing we'll talk about. That's right.
Speaker 1:That's right, that's right, we'll get into all that. Yeah, so, matt, this is your choice, and I know, zap, you did up some nice research here.
Speaker 3:So dig dive or was it?
Speaker 2:was it also just marshall herf applewhite, or was there other one other person? Maybe? I mean maybe, maybe the guy had.
Speaker 3:The guy had quite a life. So yeah, let's find out, he's an interesting cat let's, let's dig into this, dig dug, all right.
Speaker 2:Marshall herf applewhite jr was born on may 17th 1931. Damn, he's old shit. Yeah, in spur, texas matt, is there a texas thing? I?
Speaker 3:know that there's like a texas theme going on, yeah yeah, johnny, be good.
Speaker 2:Which is down in tech went down in texas, and now we're talking about marshall herf applewhite junior the stars at night are big and bright. So this dude came out of Texas. He was raised in a deeply religious family, as his father same name, Marshall Herff Applewhite Sr was a Presbyterian minister Like Robert Downey.
Speaker 1:That's right, just like yeah, dude, so many parallels here.
Speaker 2:Wow, a lot of parallels. This is insane.
Speaker 3:Man.
Speaker 2:Robert Downey Jr. Robert Downey Sr. Herff Jr. Texas, texas.
Speaker 3:Presbyterian Presbyterian.
Speaker 2:Maybe, Maybe. So this guy attended Corpus Christi High School. Typical kid, Actually, a pretty nice guy Known for his charismatic personality, musical talent, very active member of the school choir and a drama club. This sounds to me just like a normal dude out of Texas. I mean, you got a good religious background, come from a wholesome family. This guy's outgoing charismatic I mean sounds like a normal dude to me.
Speaker 1:Fun fact on that town. He's from a very small town, I think the population is under 1,000 or something like that, but somebody else that was from that town. He's from a very small town, I think the population is under 1,000 or something like that, but somebody else that was from that town. Another famous person Now you might not know the name but Red McCombs. So this guy owned the San Antonio Spurs, who he named the Spurs after the town.
Speaker 3:Spur, Texas. I had no idea that is a cool fun fact who owned?
Speaker 2:the Spurs. Who owned the Spurs? Yeah, who owned the?
Speaker 1:Spurs. Who owned the Spurs? Yeah, Also the Denver Nuggets he owned at one time.
Speaker 3:This guy got some cash.
Speaker 1:And on top of all that, at one time owned the NFL's Minnesota Vikings. Oh, so I thought that was pretty wild and that he named the town, or the Spurs, after the town.
Speaker 3:His name again Red Red McCombs I think. Red's like a. Is that a nickname?
Speaker 4:It's because a lot of guys are from Texas. Maybe a red hair or something like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they call him like Big Red or Old Red.
Speaker 1:And I was thinking also of Red McCombs, but wasn't there a host of Family Feud that was Ray McCombs, or?
Speaker 3:something like that. There was a name similar to that, ray Combs.
Speaker 1:Ray Combs. Yeah, yeah, Different guy.
Speaker 3:Wait, who was the guy that the original host of uh? Family feud uh dawson, richard dawson, that guy was awesome. Yeah, dude, that guy was touchy. He'd be like big time hey, what's up there, becky?
Speaker 2:look, I know that. Look, I'll be the first one to admit that I'm a hugger. And I could, just because hugs are great, right, I like I'm a hugger, I don't care man, woman, I'm a hugger. No, this dude was a kisser. This guy was a fucking perv man oh yeah he was like he was like what's up, Leslie?
Speaker 3:We are what, Are you 18? And she's like, yeah, why, Dude? He's like, oh, bring it in here.
Speaker 2:Flicking his tongue on their ears and shit.
Speaker 1:He was causing family feud. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Indeed On that show.
Speaker 3:Dirty Dawson.
Speaker 2:So one thing we want to keep in mind here about this guy so his dad was that Presbyterian minister. So this is Christian. You know what I mean. Christian pushed on you very much in an early age. This is Protestant Christian and I got to believe that this religious upbringing had a profound influence on his early life. That would likely maybe later shape his spiritual pursuits. I don't know.
Speaker 1:To be seen. One other thing Corpus Crispi Corpus.
Speaker 3:Crispi or Corpus Crispi. Yeah, they're delicious.
Speaker 1:They come in chocolate, yeah. Corpus Crispi, get your Corpus Crispi, yeah it's a good one.
Speaker 2:They got Fruity Fruity, fruity Fruity.
Speaker 1:Christi yeah.
Speaker 3:Corpus christi so I wonder if that was a catholic. It could have been both. I don't know if they had many catholic schools in texas, maybe I don't know I mean.
Speaker 2:So corpus christi had to been the body of christ latin.
Speaker 3:I gotta believe that I gotta go to high school. Yeah, gotta believe it. But at the same time it's called corpus christi high school because it's in corpus christi exactly so there's yeah, that's a tough one it's chocolate or fruity, we should find out right. Well, I mean, half those places in texas were founded by like, uh, like the mexicans like walked up on through, so it's like everything was was Santo or a Saint or a San.
Speaker 2:San Antonio yeah, dude El Paso.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the same as Corpus Christi. It was Corpus Christi High School because it was in Corpus Christi.
Speaker 1:But who knows? And Albuquerque was what we say, white Birch.
Speaker 3:White Birch. Yeah, it's a great beer. I love Birch beer.
Speaker 2:The white kind or the really dark red kind, the really dark red kind.
Speaker 3:No, the white kind, they do have that, but the dark red kind you can't beat it.
Speaker 1:You can't beat it. That's why they have a.
Speaker 2:Jackson House. That color makes a difference.
Speaker 3:I got to get there.
Speaker 2:That's right. They have Pennsylvania Dutch the red birch beer. That's right. That's right. That's right. Shout out, shout out. Jackson House Applewhite's young adulthood, shall we? Yes, let's find out. So after high school he attended Austin College in Sherman, texas, not Boston College.
Speaker 3:Not Boston, austin? Wouldn't Austin College be in Austin, texas?
Speaker 4:I guess not, not necessarily.
Speaker 3:Texas is so confusing. That's a big-ass confusing state.
Speaker 2:Fun fact about Texas East to west. The distance in Texas from east to west is a greater distance than from here, harrisburg to Chicago.
Speaker 1:No way Good.
Speaker 2:Lord, 100%. Wow, it's a shorter distance, as the crow flies, from here to Chicago than it is from east to west Texas.
Speaker 3:Actually, Texas is a cool place to visit. If anybody gets a chance.
Speaker 1:Dallas is nice Blowing my man that's crazy, crazy man.
Speaker 3:It's a big, it's a big state. You fit like all of europe in there and have room for like more europe so still in college.
Speaker 2:Moving on to college, uh, still, a very outgoing, charismatic dude had a lot of friends. You know, he might have had a major and whatnot, but he remained deeply interested in philosophy and religion. He continued to cultivate his musical talents, performing in choirs and theatrical production. So a man of the stage as well, ultimately earned a bachelor's degree in philosophy in 1952. So at that, let's see, he was born in 31, earned it in 52. He was 21 years old, smart guy. Yeah, he did it in four years, good job, good job. After graduation he went on to union presbyterian seminary in virginia. So he's going to be a preacher man, correct like his dad yep, he went.
Speaker 2:He got his bachelor's. Now he's going on to his post-graduate for to be a, to be a whatever they are so studying a lot of, a lot of psychology, a lot of theology.
Speaker 3:Definitely on the theology and you're not doing that for for money, like you're not doing, going into that line of work to be rich or anything like that well, depending there was people back in the day that that did like a little traveling tent well, there's jerry falwell, yes joel steen, the joel steen.
Speaker 1:There was uh bob uh bo tammy faye baker no, not bob barker no, no, uh, jim baker, jim baker, not jim and jim and tammy faye jim and tammy, thank you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but there's a lot of uh money to be made and a lot of people that were easily influenced, sure right and and I guess that's a cult thing also Maybe religion called religion.
Speaker 2:It's all some form of it.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, let's see. Oh, so while in the seminary he met and married, and Pierce, with whom he would go on to have two sons. His tenure at the seminary was short-lived. He left the institution in the early 50s, struggling with his faith and grappling with his emerging, throbbing carnal urges for sex with men. Yes, he knew dad would not like that. That is a no-no for Christian ministers.
Speaker 3:But I mean, there were some giveaways here.
Speaker 2:Right Not to be.
Speaker 1:No, I know what you mean, though, though, but I had two questions for that, so I wonder, and maybe you don't know, maybe you do know this, so you don't even know. You don't even know how did he meet her.
Speaker 3:I wonder, if you're in a seminary like oh they, it's not like a seminary like you're thinking, like a catholic seminary like monks, and yeah, this is like a presbyterian. They go to be a priest, but these priests marry and they're sock, hops and stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, girls come so look, man.
Speaker 2:So in the catholic religion you go to the seminary.
Speaker 3:It's no girls yeah, no girls allowed right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an all boys club, easy. Yeah. Now you go to the protestant side. Marriage is welcome. That's how you're trying to propagate the faith, propagate the race, human race, right, right, right, uh, yeah, I mean yeah I don't know. I don't know any ministers who aren't married right, so I'm so okay.
Speaker 3:So then there were probably like, yeah, the girls around or whatever, they're looking for wives they're going like out, not just like you know, like going to the sock hop, but like they're. They're meeting people there and, um, also, I guess there's a lot of women that are attracted to like men of yeah, men of the faith men of faith absolutely not like the thorn birds type thing. I don't know if you guys know what that is man in uniform.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, thorn bird.
Speaker 2:Wasn't that the pennsylvania governor during the tmi?
Speaker 3:no, that was not dick thornberg oh, thornberg, it was uh, it was a uh. It was a show on tv back in like, I think, the 80s. It was a thorn bird it was about a priest that was a player, yeah he. Well, he really liked this lady and she liked him and they had relations, relations damn, he had throbbing and I remember they played it. They played it on. Uh, it was on television and I guess it was like a big deal back then because it was kind of like taboo sure so.
Speaker 1:So that that question. My other one was was he pushed out by them or did he leave on his own? Do you know like, was it like they were like you got to get out, or was he kind of like, did he make that decision on his?
Speaker 2:own? He wasn't, yeah, so he wasn't pushed out. He left on his own volition it's because of his throbbing cojones his throbbing carnal urges. Temptation for the man? Yeah, so he's. The thing is he's so he's grappling with this, this yeah, religion and it's not. It's not right, but I'm feeling this way god's telling me this is a no-no, I shouldn't be having these desires for men. That's gay, homosexual. I shouldn't be doing that, and yet god is telling me no, it's god says no but my junk says yes, yes.
Speaker 2:So he said, look, I I can't be a presbyterian minister. Not be, I can't, because I like the boys here. I can't do that.
Speaker 1:It's frank and beans all day for me well, good for him, though, to to get out if he sure, absolutely well, I guess there wouldn't have been any. Uh, they're all of age or whatever. They're all the same age, or wasn't any of that?
Speaker 3:so well, let's all remember yeah, he wasn't. He wasn't into the like the youngers, he just, yeah, he was just having conflicts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was. Look, he's into dudes, right, he's into junk bush. Well, let's remember that those who can do and those who can't teach that yoda. No, that's actually uh jack black from uh school of school of rock.
Speaker 4:yeah, that's actually Jack Black from School of Rock, is that?
Speaker 3:what that's from. Yeah, I just watched it. That's actually a really good movie. It's a very good movie. Very, very good movie.
Speaker 2:It's motivating. Motivating, yes, and uplifting it is. I like that movie. So, with thoughts of Cox on his mind, did you write that?
Speaker 3:in there, no Okay.
Speaker 2:I wrote that in my brain, so he turned his attention fully to music. Uh, earning a master's degree in music from the university of colorado go buffs buffalo he began his career in the arts by teaching music at varying institutions, including the university of alabama, and this guy's all over yeah right?
Speaker 3:well, he was a good, good institution.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was highly regarded for his work, uh, with the university choir, in fact. Now, oh, in 1965, apple white was dismissed from his position. This is because he'd had a romantic relationship with a male student, which at the time was considered scandalous. I don't't know nowadays, especially in school and wokeness and all of that stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, I was thinking too yeah, I got it.
Speaker 3:I want you to have an affair with a male student.
Speaker 2:All right guy. I think it's like one of the checkboxes on the application.
Speaker 1:But in college they're of age, but it's also that authoritative figure. You know what I'm saying? They're of age, but it's also that authoritative figure.
Speaker 2:You know I'm saying that they would, they would talking. You're talking in the middle, sick, the, the mid-60s, where it was absolutely frowned upon to have any kind of anything like that but even even today, it's still like dave's saying, it's still frowned upon.
Speaker 1:You still can't have relations with students, be it male or female even if they're of age, just because of the like you're in a there's.
Speaker 3:I think you sign a contract for that I would think yeah, maybe not college.
Speaker 1:Yes, like a teacher, can't a professor really yeah, professor because because shit yeah well, couldn't that go against like yeah, but if you're, yeah, if you're teaching.
Speaker 3:It's a code of ethics thing because you're getting better grades. They would have a. It's like having um, like, uh, like in the workplace, like if you're having a relationship with somebody that you're working with, you have to sign like a agreement or whatever right.
Speaker 1:I don't know shit about, fuck about that. Well, even, yeah, like you said, in a workplace, yeah, like I'm having relations with my manager.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, we have to move you. You know what I mean. Maybe, like I think there's something they sign for a school that you can't do, that you can be fired for something like that Maybe, but in the 60s it's easier to hide.
Speaker 2:Sure no internet. Well, with this, you know, scandalous thing in his history. Now he ended up moving to Houston, texas, back to Texas, where he took a position as the chair of the music department at St Thomas University. Go St Thomas, the chair of the music department at st thomas university. Go st thomas. Now, let's not forget, this dude was married at the time with two kids. And how do you go home and explain to your wife hey man, I kind of lost my job because, uh, well, I'm, you know, having an affair with a male student.
Speaker 3:Well, like it is 1965, so there wasn't, you know. He just went home. Hey, I got fired from my job, you know, or something. Yes, something happened maybe. Well, I don't think it was that hard to cover up. I know this guy 1965.
Speaker 4:So there wasn't, you know, he just went home.
Speaker 2:Hey, I got fired from my job or something.
Speaker 3:Yes, something happened, maybe.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't, I don't think it was that hard to cover up. I know this guy was still a man of the faith. I'm sure he kept some kind of uh, maybe he didn't lie too much to his wife, but either way, uh, his personal life remained in turmoil. His marriage ended in divorce and he struggled with his identity and purpose. Ultimately, he resigned from St Thomas University in 1970 after yet another affair with a male student.
Speaker 1:You know this came up on. There was a good documentary on it.
Speaker 2:I see a pattern forming here.
Speaker 1:For sure. There was a good documentary on Ashley Madison on Netflix and it's a similar reminds me of this a little bit, um, except the guy was having an affair with a married woman. Right on this ashley madison list came out. He was working at a seminary as a professor there. He came home and instead of telling his wife like this is what I got fired from my job because my name was on this ash Madison list he ended up like committing suicide because I mean he, he worked at a seminary. They let him go because he's basically cheating on his wife and you're teaching at this university, the seminary or whatever.
Speaker 1:It was. One of them deals where she was going to find out, cause that list is public and like we thought about with the internet it was going to come around anyhow. But like the wife obviously was devastated, she's like I would have forgave him to kill yourself. Yeah, but he, that's insane yeah, but um similar situation to this where he got fired. He had to go home, probably tell his wife, but he probably could have made something up sure, a little bit easier you know I got busted for stealing pens or some shit.
Speaker 2:A little bit easier than uh killing yourself yeah well, he could have made something up, which is a little bit easier than saying yeah, I got fired for yeah for doing this having a gay man sex with a male student.
Speaker 1:I mean he could have just said like I stole money out of the whatever out of the collection yeah, yeah, like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't think if you're having like, if you're having sex with the student, a male student you're gonna like have any any like qualms about telling her something like oh yeah, it was. Uh, it was something with appropriated funds or something.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right. Again, I got busted ceiling pens yeah. Something? Pencils Number two. All right. So this guy? What's he going to do with his life?
Speaker 4:I want to rock.
Speaker 2:That's right, he moved to New Mexico, not old Mexico. The new one mexico. There's a shine. There is a new mexico, it's shiny in 1971 and he opened a deli oh, look at this guy that failed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, with that failure after failure after failure, he returned to his parents place in spur, texas, later that year, uh to help care for his ailing father, who died not long after now. Amidst a period of profound personal crisis, he voluntarily admitted himself to a psychiatric hospital. It was here that he began to experience what he would later describe as a spiritual awakening, which paved the way for his future religious endeavors so at this point he's like 40 years old, like in his 40s, he is 40.
Speaker 2:He is exactly 40 years old and this guy has. You know he thought hey, man, I can be just like dad it's. You know my dad inspires me. You know he motivates me. Like I want to be a man of faith. I'm going to get into this Shit. I can't do that because I'm into dudes, so I guess I could go teach shit. I'm getting fired from my teaching jobs because I'm banging male students. Okay, maybe I can open a deli because there's meat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like I can slice meat yeah, uh, shit, I failed at the deli. I'm going back home, I'm going to figure things out. I'm just going to hit the reset button. I'm this is my midlife crisis. At 40, I'm just going to go home and live with my parents. Shit, my dad died, so I mean, you know, this guy's basically trying at life and failing at life. Hey, that's, that's gotta hurt man.
Speaker 3:He's still living he's still doing all right look, I'll tell you.
Speaker 2:The dead only know one thing it is better to be alive yep true dad, and that I mean around that age.
Speaker 1:We're we're a little bit older than that, but we're, you know, in our 40s as well, and this is a time of life where I think you start to have revelations about things, the way you look at life and everything. So I think it's probably at this point in his life he's like like starting to think differently, and maybe so that makes sense.
Speaker 3:It yeah, especially if you went to therapy this is the point where you you just want to take shrooms and go for a walk Right, right, look good for him.
Speaker 2:If nothing else, I applaud that he checked himself into a psychiatric hospital. I mean, otherwise he'd just be spinning, absolutely just spinning his wheels, failing again, failing and failing. Maybe he needed that help.
Speaker 3:But he was mentally right to know that he needed to put himself in something for help.
Speaker 2:Right on.
Speaker 3:That's what himself in, something for help so, yeah, he's not like this dude's not nuts or anything, he's a smart, smart guy, smart dude, really smart dude, and again.
Speaker 2:Dude with the, the music background and the, the charismatic personality, and he's in the drama club and he's doing whatever the hell he's doing, like he's got a. There's a calling for him. Yeah, I'm pulling for this guy. He's just tortured I'm holding out hope and dave. I agree, I think he's just tortured.
Speaker 3:Well, let us always remember that when life closes a door, god opens a window and god is here, tonight the hue hefner on high, I feel it they can't reach on brother, they can't make it all right.
Speaker 2:In 1972, old old Marshall met this broad named Bonnie Nettles, who was a nurse with a husband and four kids and a keen interest in biblical philosophy and mysticism. Who is this Bonnie lady? This was the defining moment in Apple White's life.
Speaker 1:This is where it happened, man.
Speaker 2:He hit the reset button here. The pair quickly formed an intense non-romantic bond and discovered they shared a fascination with spirituality and the metaphysical, metaphysical, metaphysical, the word. It didn't take long for nettle's husband to leave her, taking the kids with him.
Speaker 3:He said, bitch, be crazy yeah, she's spending all this time.
Speaker 2:She's spending all this time with this dude that just got out of the psych ward. So equally at the same time, by now apple white had broken off all contact with his family too, like all they did was share every waking moment so nettles, who had a background in astrology and theosophy, introduced applewhite to a new world of teachings again, the astrology thing being key right here yeah, they began to study a range of subjects, including sci-fi literature, biblical texts and the writings of philosophers like helena blabatsky and alist Crowley, who was a devil worshiper yeah, he was an interesting dude.
Speaker 2:He definitely knew some occult shit for sure. Together, they developed a mutual belief that they were the two witnesses prophesied in the book of Revelation who would guide their followers to the kingdom of heaven.
Speaker 1:That's wild. That's a lot to unpack there. Wild, that's a lot to unpack there.
Speaker 2:That's a lot to unpack. So the crib notes on this, or the cliff notes, I should say these two met they're. They're changing their whole minds on religion. They're convincing each other of what religion should be and how not. As that's all going on, they're now convincing each other. Hey man, we're the two that were written about thousands of years ago in the book of revelation. That we're those two. We are the, the two witnesses that they describe in the book of revelation.
Speaker 1:That's us was there drug use involved and this?
Speaker 3:see, I think dave's on to something there maybe I I is there, I don't know. I'm wondering but but I don't know I didn't see they didn't really say anything. That that's. That's what, because I watched the Max documentary on this.
Speaker 1:Did you see that? I did not.
Speaker 3:OK yeah, there was a lot of, I mean the people that followed him. There was drugs involved, but then they came to the point where, like you're not allowed, like the drugs and stuff like that, but talking to each other so much I mean they're both well-educated in in in theology religion. They have backgrounds in it.
Speaker 2:And I think they just kind of mind fucked each other to the point where you know what we're right. I think it's. I'm with you on that, matt, and I think it took you saying that to really bring me to the idea of you know, if you have a successful person, or even a not successful person if they're surrounded by yes men constantly, they're going to think that anything they say is right. So these two were each other's best and biggest yes men.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they were advocates for each other's minds. Yeah, dude, it just went in a circle of yeah, we're right, some crazy ass shit.
Speaker 1:I just would think that the drugs would enhance all this.
Speaker 3:You're thinking like, yeah, when you're young and you're high, you start like looking at the sky with your friends. You're like man, look what's out there.
Speaker 1:It's crazy and reading in the thing yeah like you know what I mean. I think it helps intensify it.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean maybe, I don't know, man like if you smoke the big marley joint you're like picking up the, the soap in the. You're like my hand is so big.
Speaker 4:So big? Yeah, why does it look like that? I remember that story.
Speaker 2:I definitely remember that story. So, I mentioned in here that they were into sci-fi literature. So the sci-fi literature specifically that they were into was this book called something of the gods, the ship of the, not the. It's not the hammer of the gods, it's the hammer of the gods. It's the hammer of the gods. Anyway, it's this. They were in the Zeppelin Chariots of the gods. That's what it is Chariots of the gods and what it is. It's about ancient, essentially ancient aliens that like the concept of if you've seen, prometheus, the alien prequel.
Speaker 1:I want to see that.
Speaker 2:Ooh, Is that good. It's his base oh.
Speaker 3:Prometheus is awesome. It's incredible and my son wants to see it.
Speaker 2:So the the original, the OG Prometheus, it came out like 10 years ago.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I remember the name. The idea is that these alien astronauts had come to earth a long time ago and they are the ones that had. When you read in biblical texts or you like, look at the Egyptians like they worship the, when they talk about angels, right, that came down from the heavens and shit like that. There are theorists out there, one in particular who wrote this book back in the sixties, called chariots of the gods that would argue and happy to explain to you that there's no such that what these people were seeing wasn't exactly God. Instead, it was aliens that came to earth a long time ago and were basically gods to these humans 2 000 years ago right, yeah, I love that stuff.
Speaker 1:They talk about that on rogan all the time.
Speaker 2:So there's rogan, there's a show on history channel called ancient aliens. Oh yeah, the guy with the fucking hair. I love that dude. That's a great show, bruh yeah check that out yeah, there's a.
Speaker 1:there's one black guy that goes on rogan, and he's real knowledgeable in all that. What you're talking about, these ancient aliens that came down and they kind of made a hybrid. It's like a version of them, mixed with a human, like an alien had sex with a caveman.
Speaker 2:Right, right.
Speaker 3:Is that where you get the lizard people from? Is that the whole thing?
Speaker 1:with that, it's all kinds of wild stuff like that. And then there's also I think it was him or another guy that was on there these theories that like, like these aliens put us here on earth. This is kind of like our um their playground. This is like our kind of training ground. This is where we see if we're good enough to to continue on. Yeah, it's wild stuff, man, and this is probably where they're digging a lot of their wild stuff.
Speaker 2:They were dipping into that and the Bible and philosophy and all kinds of shit like that. And at this point they have determined that they are the existing incarnations of what are called the two witnesses, and it's written right in the book of Revelation yeah, they're them.
Speaker 1:That's wild.
Speaker 2:Let's see what happens next year. Yep, they're them. That's wild. Let's see what happens next year. In 1974, oh, apple white was arrested and jailed for six months for failing to return a rental car. What a goof. Now, according to him, he had been authorized by higher power to keep the car. Essentially, he told the rental company fuck you, I'm not bringing it back. God told me, this is my car that doesn't hold up in court it does not um, and, not surprisingly, apple, whites and nettles.
Speaker 2:Divinity ultimately took a subtle detour. Their mutual belief shifted from being the two witnesses from the book of revelation to now believing they were extraterrestrials. Et, we just covered that one more time. They are not the two mentioned in the book of revelation, they are now extraterrestrials, aliens. Yeah, their teachings combined elements of christianity, new age mysticism and ufo lore. They preached that they were extraterrestrial beings who had temporarily taken on human form to help their followers achieve a next level of existence. Now, next level was an ascended state that transcended the human condition, free from the limitations and suffering of earthly life isn't that like the?
Speaker 3:uh, the mormon religion? Or what's the scientology like the? No, no, you're right with the mormons it's, it's the okay, it's the same as the Mormons.
Speaker 2:The Mormons. So whomever Joseph Smith received these scrolls from some alien or some angel alien that delivered them to him, that's what the Mormon stuff is yeah, that's Mormon the Latter Day Saints yeah, oh wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you didn't know that yeah, oh wow, you didn't know that day. It's all based on an alien script. Yeah, yeah, so we write, we read the, you know, the whatever version of the bible. You've heard things like the king james bible or the whatever bible we use, like the new english bible or the current english bible. Book of mormon uses the, basically the joseph smith, wow His teachings.
Speaker 3:That's it.
Speaker 4:But yeah, it's due to L Ron Hubbard. That's Dianetics.
Speaker 2:Dianetics. So that's Scientology, that's Scientology, that's Scientology, yeah, but that's based on the levels too.
Speaker 3:However much money you pay into, it is how high of a level that you achieve. But they go to rooms where they watch videos.
Speaker 2:I we, let's say Catholics, right, and so there's three of us here and we, we will look down at and poo poo the concept of of cult and we'll say, man, that's a cult, that's a cult, that's a cult. Well, look, man, we're going to essentially the equivalent of a cult that's been around for close to 2000 years.
Speaker 3:Yes, I mean, yeah, jesus has been around for for 2000. And it was based on an Egyptian religion. It's been around longer than that. There you go. So, but I mean it faith is. I mean you don't, you don't really mess with people's faith.
Speaker 4:It gives them something to hold on. That's right.
Speaker 3:Something to believe in, and but if you can find Michael. Michaels, yeah, on point, but if you can find something that that gives these people that kind of hope or that kind of um. Yeah, something to believe in. I mean you can attract a lot of people and then he's going on tour. Yeah, he was just at.
Speaker 1:Uh, hollywood, hollywood, yeah, you know casino yeah, but I totally agree with you guys like I try to be respectful to all religions because I look at it like as long as you're a good person and you're, you know what I mean it doesn't matter to me like what, what you, whatever you want to believe, whatever you want to believe you don't't want to believe at all. I'm not one of those people to be like. What do you mean? You know?
Speaker 2:All right, so yeah, that's, these guys have shifted, so let's see what do you do next? Well, now let's start a cult.
Speaker 3:Why not by?
Speaker 2:1975, applewhite and Nettles had adopted the names Bo and Peep respectively and had recruited followers to their cause. They traveled across the united states holding meetings and sharing their message did you get to?
Speaker 3:do you have the t and o on here too? I'm getting there, okay to recruit followers.
Speaker 2:They often placed ads in alternative newspapers and used outreach techniques reminiscent of evangelical movements like the nirvana times. Yeah, I think it was. You're basically putting like a eight and a half by eleven piece of paper on a telephone pole or on a billboard with the little tabs at the bottom that you can pull off. You can pull off, you know. So their message was tailored to resonate with those who felt disillusioned by conventional religion or social norms. It wasn't long before they'd recruited a few hundred members. The group was initially called Human Individual Metamorphosis, or HIM, but after a handful of other iterations it would ultimately settle on the name Heaven's Gate. So, just like the last segment, there's a lot to unpack with this one, especially the part that harkens back to whoever was talking about drug use. I said that I. I asked if there was questioning about drug use, so it would not surprise me if the followers were potentially drug users hippies and beatniks I was what any kind of cult went for You're trying to think of we did Charles Manson right.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 2:Same concept. You get a charismatic person and you have someone who is disillusioned, or just some beatnik, or somebody who doesn't know what they want to be when they grow up, or somebody with daddy issues, or somebody who, let's say at the time, might have been gay or might have been, you know, not with the norm or the social norm, or hated what was going on with the world, like with wars, or you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Just somebody that was against the norm, like like zap saying it's and with that again or rejected more often than not rejected by normalcy and what we sometimes say didn't have a place to belong we sometimes say like these people were crazy.
Speaker 3:But a lot of them were like younger, intelligent, like college educated, liberal arts type people.
Speaker 1:People are sometimes just loners and they don't. Yeah, and you want?
Speaker 2:you want something that that is, is you can you want to be a part of yeah, you want to be a part of something bigger than yourself, I mean look at high school.
Speaker 1:look like in high school there was only always a couple of kids that kind of like were off doing their own thing, you know? I mean just didn't quite fit in the like circles or, you know, groups of people.
Speaker 3:And now they're in jail.
Speaker 1:Not necessarily.
Speaker 3:It's a funny joke. Not all of them, yeah, a couple. A couple.
Speaker 1:I could see where these. For some people it's like, oh, I finally fit in somewhere, Finally somewhere where I feel like I'm at home. You know what I mean. Not everybody's going to conform and kind of fit in, yeah, and they didn't judge you because you weren't cool in high school.
Speaker 3:They didn't judge you because you smoke weed or do acid. It was something that this was what you thought and who you were. But come on in and we'll teach you to be somebody better.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, we are now knocking on heaven's gate. Early followers included people from various walks of life. You had professionals, students, parents, you name it Again just normal, everyday people. The group lived a nomadic lifestyle, frequently moving to avoid the scrutiny of families and authorities who were, shall we say, concerned about the wellbeing of the members. Heaven's gate was characterized by strict communal living and adherence to a stringent set of guidelines.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they had like um, like huge books of like what you can do.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And what, what you cannot, and they weren't one of these, like sex cults or anything like everything was based pretty much religion, based, like on on what a good moral type standing would be.
Speaker 2:Yep, it was two people defining morality. Now these things include it like. So members were expected to follow a specific diet, participate in group activities and wear uniform like clothing, thereby eliminating individualism and promoting spiritual purity. Members were required to renounce their families, personal belongings and even their birth names. Members were to embrace an ascetic lifestyle. So this is severe self-discipline and abstention from all indulgences, including sexuality. So in some cases but now with that in some cases male members actually underwent voluntary castration as a means of maintaining celibacy and purity.
Speaker 1:That's what surprised me about this cult you like. A lot of the ones that I hear about are usually like sexually driven, where, like that, usually it's a guy running it and he's usually trying to like might hammer everybody's wife.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm saying this or like any girl that's there and there's none of that here. This one was the complete opposite. No sex, yeah, no zero sex.
Speaker 3:I think both the leaders of the call like the one was a gay man and the other was like, I guess she was like asexual type, like they weren't really into that. That's not what they were.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah then you wonder, I mean you wonder where the motive is, what the motive is. So maybe in really in their head, they really believe in all this you know, I mean I think what a lot of these other ones like. I think it's more like let me get your money and let me get sex, yeah, and let me live off of, uh, you know, everybody else these guys fucking believed it.
Speaker 2:They did really. I mean, they were balls deep. They weren't trying to, you know, get one over on people, they were 100. They believed in this. The two leaders, I'm saying so, I think, with the, the idea of eliminating sexuality. In my humble opinion, I think this was a look back on apple white's part, where he's like, look, man, you know they'll get you in trouble my desire for men, my sexual, throbbing, carnal urges here.
Speaker 2:That's what got me busted out of jobs and whatever for the first 40 years of my life. I gotta, we gotta just eliminate this. You eliminate that. That way you can focus on spirituality, purity. Keep your mind on us, don't you know? Or in most cases, you can keep your mind on god, but in this case you're keeping your mind on, you know, me and nettles here and and they would go, and I guess you did get these uniforms.
Speaker 3:I don't know if you've seen they're like these all yeah the all-black, you know, and they would have like this patch. It looked like a space force patch. Yes, like that says heaven's gate right there and um, yeah, and, and they gave each other like they like their birth names were given away, so they had these names. Everything ended with Yep, so it'd be like it wasn't anything crazy. Your name would be Dave Odie.
Speaker 1:Pay Odie or Zep.
Speaker 3:Odie no, it was any like Matt Odie, and they thought they were all original about this, but as long as they didn't have their birth given name, it was weird.
Speaker 2:It was so, if we want to get detailed on that. So it definitely ended in Odie. But the first it was three letters and then Odie.
Speaker 3:Is that?
Speaker 2:what it was. Three Everybody's name was the first three letters, some random three letters and then Odie. The first three letters, however, were all consonants. So no vowels, all consonants. So it would be like G-G-G-Odie.
Speaker 3:Or G-G it would be like G-G-G-O-D-E. Or.
Speaker 2:B-D-O-D-E, b-d-o-d-e, g-r-o-d-e. Right, you name it, no consonants.
Speaker 1:All consonants, no vowels.
Speaker 2:Like Wheel of Fortune. Like Wheel of Fortune. I neglected to mention in one of the previous segments when, when they were still teaching that they were the uh, the two witnesses from the book of revelation, uh, apple, white and nettles, had actually written a pamphlet that described Jesus's reincarnation as a Texan. Like they described it. They described hey, look, Jesus is back and you know what he looks like.
Speaker 2:basically like the Marlboro man or he looks like this or he has an accent that sounds like this only in Texas, or he has an accent that sounds like this Only in Texas. What they were trying to do was ultimately allude that Applewhite was the reincarnation of Jesus. Wow, Fun fact on that. So back to these two Applewhite and Nettles, who at one point were Bo and Peep and now are. Now. What are they called? Matt, Tea and Doe.
Speaker 3:Doe and Tea, doe and Tea. Yeah, and there's a fun fact about that. There's a fun fact about okay, you want to hold off on that or hey, go for it. No, go right ahead. Yeah, the fun fact is because, um uh, marshall applewhite was so into music and stuff growing up and I guess while they were sitting there talking, it was from the sound of music where they la de do, ti la. What is that? How do they do that? The winds are.
Speaker 2:The hills are alive, so it's do re mi fa so la ti do yes.
Speaker 1:Is that like warming up when they're warming up the same?
Speaker 3:yeah, it was just the from the song um okay, from the sound of music so interesting? Yeah, because they were, like you know, music, nuts. So it wasn't like that crazy, it wasn't like that. Uh, you know world.
Speaker 1:Right, right right.
Speaker 3:Just like regular cats doing their thing.
Speaker 2:Right, so do re mi fa. Sol la ti do is eight notes, so there's seven notes and it repeats with A Gotcha. There's two do's right, so it goes. Do all the way through. Do Do re mi fa a lot to eat.
Speaker 1:Dough, dough, back again.
Speaker 2:So yeah, come on, man, watch the goddamn movie. We should do a.
Speaker 1:Sound of Music. We should do Sound of Music for podcasts.
Speaker 2:That might be my next movie pick.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've seen it, but it's been a while Fantastic.
Speaker 3:It used to be on like every glorious, remember? I am 16, going on 17. You don't remember that that's been so long. My mom would like she would get hype make some popcorn. Yeah, we all just sit around and watch it. I love that movie. I'm gonna watch that this weekend remember the little kids you know like ran up the stairs. I know the movie.
Speaker 1:I just like. Like. I mean, I saw it once, probably when I was 10 or 11 I don't even know how old I was when I saw it.
Speaker 3:You must have had cable back then. It was after Johnny B.
Speaker 1:Goode, I think.
Speaker 2:I watched it.
Speaker 3:You rented it from.
Speaker 2:Blockbuster. I was considering voluntary castration after I watched Johnny B Goode. Yeah right, I don't need this anymore. Alright, alright, alright. So within this commune, daily life was highly, highly regimented. Activities were scheduled down to the minute, including group meditation, study sessions and tasks designed to build communal interdependence. Believers followed a commune lifestyle, eating simple meals and sleeping on bunk beds. So there was this thing every one of these members had a. I don't want to say guard is the right word. There was a. There was somebody who had already been around longer than they had or they had like a person that would check.
Speaker 3:I think it was called like a check yeah something, yeah, let's call it a check.
Speaker 2:Let's call it a check yeah, so there you had this check. Every member had a check. I don't care who you are, every member had a check, and this is somebody that's basically making sure that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing like, like equally, you could be somebody else's check, making sure that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing.
Speaker 2:It was just to make sure that nobody's falling out of line, nobody's having independent thoughts, nobody's thinking about breaking out and going wherever the hell they want to go, nobody's sneaking in pizza or popcorn or dildos yeah, but like hey, hey, hey, uh dave or zap um, like uh suzy beth looking pretty cute over there like oh, whoa, check yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, exactly, hey, let's yeah, let's go, uh, pick some carrots like a buddy system, yeah you're just watching up just so the other person can tell you that can backfire, though it's like aa yeah it is, it is but that can backfire.
Speaker 1:I remember in grade school like I was always like really good with doing my homework and all that I got hooked. I got hooked up with this kid that basically we had a buddy system. The teacher was like hey, I'm not going to check all your homework, you guys check each other and you'll pair up with somebody. I paired up with this kid. It was like fuck it.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna do it if you don't do it.
Speaker 1:He's like no, he's like I don't do it just filled it in, he's like I, I don't do it, you don't have to do it. Like we'll just mark it down. I'm like all right, sounds good, man, and I just didn't do my homework. You need to do his homework.
Speaker 2:I'm like man, bad influence that's a good buddy to have, but it's driving to work at 5 am yeah, yeah, that's why I'm in that matt mcconaughey meme.
Speaker 1:There it is, but uh, yeah, so that can backfire I forgot all about that.
Speaker 2:All right. So this group believed in preparing for an imminent ascension to a higher plane of existence facilitated by extraterrestrial beings. Applewhite Nettles taught that the human body was merely a vehicle for the soul which could be shed in the process of ascending to that next level. But just when things were going, great Bonnie Nettles died from liver cancer in 1985. So this was, as you can imagine, a big blow to the group. As she was the more spiritually knowledgeable of the two leaders, applewhite pivoted and adapted his teachings to explain that her death was actually necessary and an expected transition, one which they were all waiting to achieve. Nettles had simply left her container and continued to guide the group from that next level so just twisting it into like a positive, you know, yeah, she was still speaking sure to absolutely that's the whole thing.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's, that was the ultimate pivot and it was like look man, if we're all extraterrestrial and we're all just carrying these, we're all just walking around in you know meat pockets, you know hot pockets or right meat sacks, but really we're going to ultimately ascend back up into you know extraterrestrial land. She just beat us to it, she just left her container right, so she's ascended. We, we all hope to get there someday, which?
Speaker 3:what we pretty much I mean we learned that as catholics too.
Speaker 2:Like this is just a outer shell, sure, sure, and we will say Remember, man, that you are dust, and to dust you shall return. Fun fact Nettles had actually she had an eye surgically removed in 1983 as a result of that cancer.
Speaker 1:Oh really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she had. Like Sammy Davis, she had her right eye removed and there was a glass eye put in there.
Speaker 1:Wow, listen here, man hey man looky, looky he's having a cannonball run flash it's groovy man.
Speaker 2:That's terrible.
Speaker 4:Sammy davis yeah those are great though looking here all right that's sammy davis jr I.
Speaker 2:I could look at here, but my eyeball is glass.
Speaker 3:Petition my cocktail here, Shane.
Speaker 2:I like your nice. There was like an old Depression era gangster in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Shane Look here, Muggsy. That's delicious with a cherry on top, Shane, Okay.
Speaker 2:Candyman, let's go. That's a good song, great song. So throughout the late 80s and the early 90s, heaven's Gate became increasingly secretive. They adopted a more secluded lifestyle. As public interest in their activities began to grow, they began to integrate new technological tools into their daily practices. Members became adept at using computers and the Internet, creating a significant online presence. That expanded their reach. Now for money, they offered web development services through a business called Higher Source, thereby generating funds to support their commune while spreading their message online. Generating funds to support their commune while spreading their message online. Alas, this proved to be bad for applewhite's pride, as internet trolling had already begun and most people found his teachings to be ludicrous yeah, I can see that online yeah, come on man, seriously, what did you expect?
Speaker 2:you're trying to push this on. You're trying to push a website that, yeah, believe in this, and now you're going to push this on. You're trying to push a website that, yeah, believe in this, and now you're going to get butt hurt because you're getting people. You're getting reactions and people posting about your website Like you're crazy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but you didn't. You didn't have to bring ludicrous into this, he didn't do anything. He didn't do anything to anybody.
Speaker 2:That's fair, that's fair how good anything you're doing no matter what you're putting out there.
Speaker 1:There's going to be somebody that haters gonna hate, haters gonna hate bitter. Whatever like our rating. We're at a 4.9 because somebody felt they had to give us a one star rating one person. One person, right, you know, I'm saying this is like really one star somebody gave us one star, yeah are you serious? Well, somebody did, because every other one is like five star, four star star. You know what I mean. We would be at five stars, but somebody gave us a one star, so that dude's a bitch, I can tell you. Right.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's a girl. I hope he or she, or the he, she maybe they're going through a gender transition, right, why don't they put their name out there?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll come and punch them in the throat.
Speaker 1:Listen here one game out there. Yeah, I'm coming. Listen here, one star. Yeah, we know you're out there. I'll punch you in the throat. I mean it could have been my mom just saying, but I'm just saying I'm gonna give you five davy, oops, wrong button, by mistake.
Speaker 3:That's what I was thinking, yeah, it could have been a big mistake it could have been my mom sorry, sorry guys, my mom messed up, she thought one was better.
Speaker 2:Oh oh, it's like, it's like defcon right, dave knows who.
Speaker 3:The one star. You are awesome. One star, you're great, you're a one star you're the no, you're the number one yeah number one.
Speaker 1:You're not as confused, you're not fifth place. You're not fifth place, you're first place, first place, this world, this world is screwed up, man we'll chalk it up to that, yeah, but back to the original point is like this guy's going online, you're gonna get negative reaction.
Speaker 2:I promise you I'm not gonna punch your mom in the throat.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, all right, she didn't mean it, yeah, but online for cults, man, that's a positive and a negative. I mean it's, you know it's a 50.
Speaker 1:50, yeah, I mean you're gonna get more people shot in the dark man. You're gonna get a lot of backlash too that's anything in life you always like.
Speaker 3:You think you got something great and then you get it on the internet and then it's garbage, garbage that's the other thing too.
Speaker 1:So these always seem to be out, these like compounds, and they're always out like away from everybody, correct? Yeah and, and this was no different this well, so this was no different.
Speaker 2:Now again, these guys were so by now, however. So if we're talking, where are we at here? We're in the 80s, so at some point back in the 70s. So you one begs the question how are these guys carrying on? How are they buying computers? Where are they living, like? How is this happening that they're able to start up this internet bank and all these? They're doing all the shit. There was some one of the members back in the 70s had died and that that member was apparently well-to-do.
Speaker 3:So this group they willed everything to the group and so these two they got a significant inheritance from one of these now dead members, so they were just living off of that, and I think beforehand it was kind of like the Manson thing, where they're taking out jobs, you know just doing whatever to try to put the money for the, the cult.
Speaker 1:That is correct I wrote that down there. Where's the income?
Speaker 2:yeah and that makes sense back in the 70s somebody died and left a pretty vast inheritance to these guys. Uh, in fact, with that inheritance they ended up living in new mexico for a few months in the later half of 1995 you were there it's not old mexico, but new mexico the shiny one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the new mexico. Do you think that's a lot with? Like the area 51, like the alien thing, like they feel closer to, would not surprise me well, you were there in new mexico in 1995 yes, I was I wrote that down there, matt so I might have been. I might have been chilling with these cats, I don't know so they were there building a monastery.
Speaker 2:Did you happen to see them building a monastery? No, I did not see that well, it's good, because that's pretty fast they were only there for a couple of months and that that attempt failed okay maybe it was one of them that roughed you up at the vending machine yeah, no, that was in little rock, arkansas. Okay, that was an attempted robbery, gotcha damn you jacked, I was jacked, you got jacked for a soda I but but I just got them a soda I just here.
Speaker 3:I'll just buy you a soda, man. Just yeah, take the Coke, it's cool.
Speaker 2:After the failed attempt to build a monastery in New Mexico, they relocated to San Diego, which means whale's vagina.
Speaker 1:In Spanish no.
Speaker 4:There's all them sands again.
Speaker 3:That's San.
Speaker 2:Diego, san Diego, you've never seen Anchorman.
Speaker 1:I mean, I probably did, I don't remember.
Speaker 2:Ron Burgundy. You've never seen Ron.
Speaker 1:Burgundy. I'm going to be straight up with you guys.
Speaker 3:Now tell me.
Speaker 1:A lot of those comedies like that. I'm not like. I mean Will Ferrell's okay, but I'm not like a huge fan. I know I caught it like bits and pieces of it. You know what I'm saying. I got you saying but I'm not like the type to sit down.
Speaker 3:What about step brothers?
Speaker 1:I saw that one. I actually just saw that recently oh, are you kidding me? Yeah, maybe like within a year it's not for everybody that one I did like. I did like that one, though I was on a boat.
Speaker 3:When they're on the boat catalina wine mixer man, that's right boats and hoes.
Speaker 2:But um yeah, san diego san diego, so that's saint diego yes by now. Uh, there were a little more than 40 members in total, so they were up in the hundreds, but people just skipped out. These are the real believers man, these are the 40 strong.
Speaker 2:These are the true. True. In October 1996, the group rented a mansion for itself in the same area and they now had a place to call home. So they went from New Mexico to. So they were in wherever the hell they were. Then they moved to New Mexico, tried to build a monastery. They were there for a couple of months, failed, moved to San Diego and rented a mansion.
Speaker 1:Damn, that couldn't be cheap. You know what I'm saying? That real estate there.
Speaker 3:So, dude, prior to that they got some money. Somebody gave them shit ton time well, again they.
Speaker 2:They had an inheritance money plus they were doing that internet shit oh, that's true, so they're making more money now they were doing web development services. This is at a time when the internet is just starting it's a baby. So if they, if nobody knows shit about, fuck about making a web page or whatever I mean, which no one or very few did they were offering that service yeah, they were um like uh, silicon valley, like the show you know I'm saying dude, I love that doors go like this, doors go like this, what?
Speaker 3:was that out?
Speaker 1:what silicon valley yeah?
Speaker 3:the show, yeah, the show.
Speaker 1:But uh like maybe 10 years ago.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 10 years ago the uh.
Speaker 2:So, prior to renting these mansions or mansions, they prior to renting this mansion I was like damn they cash flow. They actually had lived in again as these guys were moving and shaking from from town to town to town, both trying to get members and trying to avoid scrutiny, and you know, because these guys are basically a traveling circus, right they're they'll go to a town, try to recruit members and they will get shooed out of town.
Speaker 2:Absolutely just shoo, get the hell out of here, get you. Get you and your weird alien ways. Get the hell out of our town. You're laughable. You're a joke. Get out. They would rent houses like either next door to multiple houses, a couple of houses like next door to each other, or like one really big house, not necessarily a mansion, but one big one that everyone lived inside, like in bunks, so they there's just who knows how many people are inside, but you only ever see one or two. It's like something if you don't want to let your landlord know that you got a bunch of people squatting at your house. But you're, you know your landlord is paying the water bill and paying the nine cars.
Speaker 3:Don't give it away, correct?
Speaker 1:yeah, you, yeah. I see what you're saying.
Speaker 2:So in order to avoid that scrutiny or to let people know where they were or who they were or where missing family members of other people were, that everyone was just in seclusion in these random houses.
Speaker 1:So the lease says four people and there's 28. Correct what I got. Correct Makes sense. Correct what I got.
Speaker 2:Correct Makes sense. Yep, and they were working on internet banks and shit like that.
Speaker 1:I think that water bill be high though.
Speaker 3:Sure, probably, unless they're not showering Stinky call people that recycling bin overflowing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, take that shit out.
Speaker 2:Maybe it was weekly showers, it could have been too.
Speaker 3:It could Rules remember A lot of rules.
Speaker 2:That's right. No showers, no razors.
Speaker 3:If they're not having the nasty. No junk, yeah they probably don't take care too much.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, let's follow that comet. In 1995, a comet had been discovered by two astronomers, alan Hale and Thomas Bopp.
Speaker 1:Now note that's Alan Hale not the same guy that played the skipper? That was his name.
Speaker 3:Okay, I did not know that is that the gilligan skipper to the millionaire and his wife.
Speaker 2:Just a skipper in this part, okay, not him, though not him. Same name, different person. The hail bob comet Became visible to the naked eye in May of 1996. The arrival of the comet was interpreted by Applewhite as the long-awaited sign that their time on Earth was concluding. Applewhite announced that a spacecraft trailing the Hale-Bopp comet was coming to transport them to the next level. Even so, that Nettles was on a spaceship waiting for them. Meticulous preparations for the group's final journey would soon begin.
Speaker 3:So these dudes hear that a comet's flying by hail bob comet I wouldn't just said the comet, I wouldn't have brought the spaceship and everything else into it. I just said you know the comet's coming to earth, we're getting ready to go. He's dude, he's talking spacecraft, he's milking this, he's like he is, he is there's, there's like a trailing right behind that comet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nettles is up there, or t she's, she's right behind it, she's, she's gonna be trailing as soon as it's coming. Man, she's coming in for us, she's gonna come get us but they were.
Speaker 3:It was falling into place for apple white because it was so good. He's like dude. Look at this comment, it's right there, it's on tv. Look, they have it right.
Speaker 2:They're like wow, man, you're right I think, this guy needed something spectacular to happen because he was running out of shit to do honestly he did.
Speaker 3:When he heard the time, I think, yeah, like the timing was right maybe the members were getting antsy in the pantsy, I don't know man, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I did. Uh, I did hear that he was comparing, like humans, time on earth, of the seasons on earth, like how we go, like the earth goes through different seasons, yeah, and that that's how, like humankind, now our season's up, we're getting ready for a new change okay earth will still be here, but our seasons and be like the dinosaurs are coming back.
Speaker 3:Oh, I see, fish will be on land. I can dig that.
Speaker 2:I can dig that like I mean, look, there were ice ages. They're the paleolithic age. You, you know, there's the Stone Age.
Speaker 3:Right, Right right and a million years from now. Who knows, who knows what?
Speaker 1:will be here who?
Speaker 4:knows what will be here?
Speaker 3:Those goats, goats or something. I'm crazy.
Speaker 2:Speaking of crazy. In late March 1997, the group produced a series of videotapes in which members expressed their willingness to depart from their earthly bodies and their excitement about the journey ahead, with the intent of explaining their decision and beliefs to the world, faith in Applewhite's leadership, his gospel and their collective destiny. Beginning on March 22, 1997, 39 members of Heaven's Gate, including Applewhite, participated in a carefully orchestrated mass suicide at their rented mansion mansion. With the help of a lethal mixture of phenobarbital and vodka, they believed they would release their souls to board the awaiting spacecraft. On March 26, 1997, authorities raided the mansion thanks to a tip from a former member who'd received instructions to check on the group. The group members were found lying peacefully in their bunk beds, each covered with a purple cloth. Applewhite's body was found seated on the end of the bed on the mansion's master bedroom. All members had dressed uniformly in black clothing and Nike sneakers, with armbands reading Heaven's Gate Away, team Go, team. All members were found with bags over their heads.
Speaker 1:It was later determined that applewhite had been assisted by three others for his suicide, making him the fourth to last member to die yeah, I know they said they died in like um, they took, like you know, little groups, like one would go and then the next few would go and and uh, but they would check on, like the first group to go. They would go and check on, make sure they got everybody dead. Cool, go, all right, next group. And they would go until the last ones. I guess they didn't have the bags on their head so they're ready to put the bags on.
Speaker 2:There's so many of these, uh the, the videos that these guys made right, so it's basically like they're hey look, mom, I'm good. I haven't seen you in a while, but I'm gonna be dying soon. I'm gonna be heading up to like I'm on the heaven's gateway team I'm gonna be heading out, but I wanted to say goodbye gonna be peace now.
Speaker 2:I wanted to say goodbye, but I also wanted to say how much I you know love this religion. I'm so into this I I can't believe that it's finally happening. I'm gonna leave my earthly body and go up to space and hang out with nettles or tea whatever she called herself at the time, right, who was dead from cancer. We're going to go hang out in space. So good to see it. So many of these videos are on YouTube.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're on YouTube. That's where you can absolutely see these.
Speaker 2:And these people like when they refer to themselves as their weird ass names. Right, it's just fucking bizarre, but um what are?
Speaker 3:they called odas odes, odes odes yeah but um, as as that was referencing to like on youtube, you can see that and there's also um on the max uh documentary documentary they were showing. Like the former members that were kind of like when they started talking about this. They're like nah, man, I'm good like they didn't want to do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're like here, give me my suit I'm gonna go to the bathroom real quick like getting the hell out of there but they were saying, like you believe so much in this until the point where the guy's like kind of like taking your life or we're gonna get on the ship, and they're kind of like wait, wait, wait, hold on.
Speaker 1:What do we got to do hold on a sec and then after you like you drink this and stuff be like of that, yeah, I mean, yeah, you think you would definitely wise up at that point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when you're going to die, like shit gets real. You're kind of like ah let me double think this.
Speaker 1:But fun fact on those sneakers. So those Nike sneakers it was a 1993 model. What would you call that when you're?
Speaker 2:like the model, the series or whatever. Yeah, the series. They make like sbs, they make low dunks, they make whatever they were called the nike decades okay okay, and so 1993, he bought them in bulk because they were like I guess they weren't selling.
Speaker 1:Well, I guess he got a good deal, sure, everything they would do. Obviously they buy in bulk, sure? So they were bought up in bulk. After nike found out about this, they kind of bought them all back, all the ones that were out there. They kind of tried to make this go away. It's not good pr for nike, no, it is not. So if you can find a pair of these, they're worth like a ton of money. There's shit. Yeah, there's currently a pair a size 12. I think.
Speaker 2:They were on ebay right now for six, six thousand six hundred and sixty dollars, right they're probably not gonna sell I want to see if I can't find them on stock x yeah, you might get a better deal 6600.
Speaker 1:I had that also yeah yeah, there was a pair for 1500. I saw on there as well on ebay.
Speaker 2:I don't know if they're authentic now if I could get myself a hand on one of those heavens gateway team patches. Yeah, now that I would pay some money for that I got no problem paying money for facebook.
Speaker 1:Marketplace probably has a few I mean you could probably get them up. I'm sure somebody probably had them made up. I want one of the OG ones, the authentic ones From the dead body.
Speaker 3:You can even get ones that aren't like 93, like the vintage 1990s, and they're still like 1,000.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's probably the one I saw. But yeah, for Nike it wasn't a good thing, but for the collector's market when? For the collector's market? When? Something like that happens.
Speaker 3:Any publicity is good publicity.
Speaker 1:I was trying to think of other examples of like, uh, notorious, well, like OJ with the white Bronco. All of a sudden, then, white Broncos are worth, like you know. Oh, they have a little bit of value when you can tie it to a crime.
Speaker 2:I still look around. I still look around for the 94 Bronco for the white Bronco 100% what Brunellis?
Speaker 3:or the Bertini Bertini Giorgio.
Speaker 1:Bertini. Oh no, Giorgio Bertini, I think, was.
Speaker 3:That was the ones that we used to wear in high school. Those are the ones you got to pay less. Yeah, giorgio Brunelli, there was some Italian.
Speaker 1:The metal tip, yes, just the tip the Bruno Mali.
Speaker 3:Bruno Mali. There it is gloves were like some sort of like special italian pair or something too. They became like a taboo.
Speaker 1:Oh, the ones that yeah, they didn't fit though no, they didn't, but they still became like taboo I think it was like a pair of uh, what were?
Speaker 3:those like gloves used to buy people for like isotoners.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not michael jackson's not a rhinestone glove so when this all went down, man, like there was significant I mean significant sensationalized and extensive media coverage of this like this was abc nbc yeah, they would have shows about it and absolutely massive, uh. But so what was it like? Only a few years later, the dude where's my car? Came out, if you ever seen that, yeah, yeah so zoltan, like that whole thing that was going on at that kid's farm or whatever, it smacks exactly of this, right, I mean, that was surely this had inspired inspired, like the cult and I was just thinking back to the crime, sultan, or I shouldn't say crime, but the story that I just did, the mel's hole.
Speaker 1:That was all going on around this same time. Yep, on that, art brooks goes to coast.
Speaker 2:I wonder if they talk about all this stuff on there on that am, which reminds me I had mentioned, or I had agreed to the concept when you would had mentioned, so that coast to coast? Yes, certainly it was art brooks. Art bell, yeah, art bell. I'm sorry, art bell. When I was listening it wasn't necessarily art bell, he was referenced, that is to say the current, the host to which I had listened or to whom I had listened.
Speaker 2:Uh, revered obviously art for starting it up and doing whatever, but the guy I was listening to at the time was George Norrie.
Speaker 1:Okay, he came after them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's just a clarification on our last podcast there about Mel's Hole.
Speaker 1:Mel's Hole, okay. So yeah, that was about the same time, I know, in 97, but I kind of remember this. I get these cults kind of confused. Yeah, I kind of remember this, I get these cults kind of confused, like, did you pick this because of the documentary or because you remembered it from?
Speaker 3:I just remembered it Because, like you said too, I was out in New Mexico at the time.
Speaker 1:So it was like big news out there.
Speaker 3:No, I mean I was back by 96. But I just remember like it was, I don't know, it just seemed like.
Speaker 1:Because there was ties to the area. Yeah, yeah, yeah I got you, I got you. It was definitely cool, like I like these cult ones. Um, we did one a long time ago on the angels landing, I think it was. That was in like utah or whatever.
Speaker 3:I mean there was the david koresh uh, these mid southwest places all got like these cults there's a couple of cults we still got to do.
Speaker 2:We still got to do waco yes, that'd be a big one a bit a waco would definitely be a multi-piece and I definitely at some point want to do jonestown yeah, that guy was, uh, he was.
Speaker 3:There was a lot of people there, 190. Yeah, that that's a lot. 190 something. That was a strict. Uh, what did they drink the? Um, kool-aid? Yeah, they drank the kool-aid, but it was a strict nine or whatever.
Speaker 1:Lace was strict nine, or was that mike jones or whatever I'm mike jones somebody jones, yeah jim jones jim jones
Speaker 1:jim jones. Okay, yeah, there are a lot of those cult and we would say, uh, manson, I mean that was called. I always picture like there's nobody around. You're out on this compound like sitting out like with birds chirping and looking out at the landscape talking shit, yeah you never hear about. I've never really heard about a cult like in a city where people can get to you and like talk you out of shit. I guess the big thing with gangs well, not even that, but just like I guess the big thing with these cults is to like cut these people off from everybody, yeah, so that you can basically go in and and kind of we should do like that.
Speaker 3:That's kind of interesting. What, like zap said, like the gangs, like the bloods or the crips, like that'd be something interesting to do it's not as culty.
Speaker 2:It's not as culty but it's like the belief is you know the motivation is you know motivation is different? Yeah, but it's not.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's not like believing you're going to go somewhere extra special if you're one of the one of the teammates so there's a a couple of significant things to consider here.
Speaker 2:It's like, you know, the chicken versus the egg in this, so, like, let's talk about apple white right for just a moment. So you look at it one of two ways either. So you know, some people think that he was just this, you know, actually, like a visionary leader, he just had a unique and, you know, a unique theological perspective that we would call fucking crazy right but that was just his perspective.
Speaker 3:But yet to other people it hits something in them it strikes a nerve somewhere where it's like oh to other people. It hits something in them. It strikes a nerve somewhere where it's like oh to other people.
Speaker 2:However, he was deluded and manipulative and he ended up just leading these people to a tragic end. I don't know if he was necessarily doing things with the idea of being manipulative, but was he like it? Was this his chance to live up, to be that preacher that he couldn't be when he was, you know, got busted for being gay?
Speaker 3:Did he really believe, like maybe that was so into his mind that people looked at him and he was like this is it, this is what's going to happen? Or was it, like zap said, it wasn't a time where it's like, oh, this could be my out? Like right here we have the comment, come in and yeah, yeah, let's up?
Speaker 1:I don't know well, here's the say too. Like we're here talking about it, like it didn't happen.
Speaker 4:Maybe it really happened, maybe they ended up maybe they just we don't know like, how do you know for sure you're right?
Speaker 1:I mean we're, we're saying and everybody here that's, you know, alive and well on earth is going on. These people were crazy and stuff. But maybe we're the crazy ones. What is it like?
Speaker 3:no, stephen hawking's right, we're like on. And I think jennifer tilly said and johnny, be good, like, we're on. Like the nine different parallels yeah, like there's however many multiverses going around our one universe into. So you, we don't know. I mean we're like you said. We might be pawns in this whole game, we might be put here by aliens. You never know, we don't know you don't even know.
Speaker 2:You don't know there's this guy, this this guy definitely did a full circle, though right. So his intent, like this guy's a little kid right, little kid, it's easy. Like he looks up to his old man who's his preacher. It's like man, when I grow up, I want to be my.
Speaker 2:Yeah I want to be just like dad because dad is respected, dad is revered in the community like he's. He's once he's so close with god and, oh man, I want to. I want to be just like that. He lives this life where he fails, fails, fails, fails, fails. He finally gets to have his own. Fuck it. I'm doing it my way. I'm gonna have my own religion. He ended up getting what he ultimately wanted when he was a little kid. Think about that, like we when we were little kids. Man, I want to grow up and be a fireman. I want to be a policeman. I want to be an astronaut, I want to be you name it this guy. He made it. He grew up to be whatever he wanted to be, he made it yeah, you're right it does.
Speaker 2:However, this whole story. In my opinion and we talked about this this really does highlight the vulnerabilities of people, of people like you know, especially when they come across somebody who's in a position of, in fact, the spiritual authority of you know, anything like that, or people just looking for some sort of fulfillment in their lives from from being a loner or a rebel daddy right being a part of something. Right, not even the rebel again more just kicked out. Yeah, yeah, tossed away, not wanted.
Speaker 3:Yeah, a feeling of I'm on this big place all alone, and then there's people like, no, you're with us.
Speaker 4:And you're like oh that it does.
Speaker 2:Equally, though, to something you had mentioned, dave, again, in my humble opinion, I think it does speak to certainly the potential dangers, maybe, of living in that isolated community, and what's going to happen then, when you have the influence of that charismatic leadership combined with that Again, also with those susceptible sheep for lack of a better word Again, when people, when the two leaders, call themselves Bo and Peep, you know, you kind of know what they're going to be doing. I think they even mentioned that at one point.
Speaker 3:That's flocking crazy.
Speaker 1:It is flocking crazy yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know, man, they dead and maybe they are flying around behind the hail bop they are.
Speaker 3:They could be up there. I mean, I I like that's good dave. I like to think that I think hansen might have written a song about that. Yeah, hell, bob, dub dub dub doodah hey guys, can you wrap it up?
Speaker 2:man, she's right, oh right, on time. I'm glad because I'm I'm tired I'm rambling on it, I'm getting all philosophical about what, what sheep and eggs and chicken and eggs? What's coming first? What causes what?
Speaker 1:well, this is a deep. This is definitely a deep one for sure, so it's not one that you can really breeze through there's a lot of stuff to unpack, like we talked about it.
Speaker 3:It's like nine o'clock on a on a school night.
Speaker 1:It's crazy shit I know, but that matt, that was great man. That's a good one to pick, yeah I hope you guys enjoyed it.
Speaker 3:I did I did man, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:A little hail bop in your life never hurt nobody I'm still amazed at the parallels between this and johnny be good there was like I don't know, you know, texas, texas is everywhere, man, it's just bananas.
Speaker 1:Who knew? But yeah, we, uh, we'll be back again with another true crime and movie, a zaps pick this time. So we'll find out. It's like a double zap pick yeah we're gonna get zapped um, so don't forget to uh it's like a zap double team that's right. Is that possible?
Speaker 2:you know, it's possible if you're, uh, frank lentini. What if you're what? It's only possible if you're frank lentini, frank lentini I don't get it. So, friend, you don't know who, francesco lentini. So in my opinion, probably should be the most underrated and overlooked and should be in my again, in my opinion, the the most famous italian american in in of all time. Sound like a drink, like the frank lentini so frank lentini.
Speaker 2:Francesco lentini, look him up. I'll have to look him up. This could be a whole story. Dude, frank lentini, he would give me a second. He was how did this work? He was born with the double d, frank lentini. He was born with three legs, four feet, 16, 16 toes and two dicks.
Speaker 3:Wow, how do we not know of this person?
Speaker 2:three legs, four feet, 16 toes and two dicks. Frank lentini he was. He was the king of the circus freaks.
Speaker 1:American performer yeah, yeah he would have been in with us.
Speaker 3:Francesco Frank Lentini.
Speaker 1:Like Lobster Boy, yeah, would have been in there, yeah, yeah, that's pretty wild, he had two junks.
Speaker 2:So again in his fame he was able to. It was the result of what's called a parasitic twin.
Speaker 3:He was born with a conjoined twin, so he's like two in one, correct.
Speaker 2:So the twin that should have lived died but then latched onto the back of his well, to his spine. So the third leg was sticking out of the base of his spine and the third leg had two feet on it. One was at the side of the kneecap.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:That's wild. He, he said I kick you a firm behind. Actually he could. So, since you mentioned that hell of a drummer man, he actually was really good. His trick was for his stick. He was able to kick a football with that third leg. He would jump, he would walk past the football, kick it with the leg over his head ahead of him. Yeah, so again, dude, he was the king of the circus breaks two dicks.
Speaker 3:Wow, he was in barnum and billy and buffalo bills. That was like a thing back in the day. Buffalo bills wild side show yeah, frank lentini I am a frank lentini how do? We not do this guy on a he could be a good break dance.
Speaker 2:He in and of himself is a compelling story, but we're going yeah, we're way off again. Mrs dave's clock's ticking here.
Speaker 1:Mrs dave's coming down, she's coming down now, so, um, at any rate, yeah, don't forget to find us on Facebook and Instagram at Old Dirty Basement Podcast. I guess that's it for now, so we'll catch you where.
Speaker 3:On the flip side, if we don't see you sooner, we'll see you later. Peace. Thanks for hanging out in the Old, dirty Basement. If you dig our theme music, like we do, check out the Tsunami Experiment Find them on Facebook. Their music is available streaming on Spotify and Apple and where great music is available.
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